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Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money down the john...

Miscellaneous
Posted by WhosPlayin on 2006/11/28 22:00:00 (249560 reads)

Short answer: The ionic footbath is unproven, and most likely bunk.

In my wife's role as a Massage Therapist, she's been pitched a number of controversial products and modalities of treatments that reek of quackery. In my opinion, these things detract from the legitimacy of the valuable benefits of things like massage and chiropractic. Yet an increasing number of otherwise professional practitioners are falling for the pseudo-science and monetary allure of these things.

You may have heard of the "ionic foot bath" in one form or another. The basic concept is that you immerse your bare feet in a basin of tepid saline water. Electrodes are then placed in the water with (but not touching) your feet. The process is supposed to "magnetically" and "ionically" draw "toxins" from the pores of your feet. These "toxins" and "heavy metals" then color the water, and you can visibly see these things leaving your body.


The first time that my wife saw this was with several members of her massage class, at the office of a fellow Massage Therapist. This other therapist performed the foot bath on a heavy-smoking friend of hers. The water was stained brown, and smelled of cigarette smoke. They were intrigued.

I was skeptical. I'm always skeptical. I have to see proof. I told my wife that I didn't see any scientific basis for how this could affect any release of toxins. After all, the electrodes are in the water, and not hooked up to the subject. All of the energy and ionization takes place in the water at the electrodes and the water between them. As for the color change, I had witnessed it before as a young amateur chemist, trying to do electroplating. I know that the metals of the electrodes will lose or gain mass, and react with the salt (or other electrolyte) in the water to form colored salts which may or may not be soluble.

Now my wife and I are seeing a chiropractor to correct some back and neck problems. Having never seen a chiropractor prior to this, I'm a bit skeptical of that science, but since my insurance pays for it, I thought I would try it. The chiropractic has helped me tremendously. My wife started after I started to see results. I only found out AFTER she had paid for 10 treatments at a cost of $385 that they had put her on a course of these "ionic foot baths".

Needless to say, not only does the insurance not cover it, but for good reason. It should have been a clue. I was present one day when she finished her foot bath and she showed me the dirty water with little bits of black flakes and white flocculent material. I explained my theory that the water would have changed color most likely whether or not her feet were in the bath at the time. I told her I would show her, so today I did a little experiment:

As you can see in the picture in the upper left, I have a 12 volt battery charger, with two electrodes, one of copper, and the other of steel (a piece of copper pipe, and a nail). In the beaker is room-temperature filtered water with added sea salt (what most peddlers of these products recommend). After only a couple of minutes at most, the water in the beaker appeared as shown in the picture at the upper right: Yellow, with black flakes, and "floaties".

All of this was conducted Without Feet in the water. But I'd seen enough. Another experiment would have been to soak my feet in warm water, and then use some of the water for the experiment. The water would then have contained some of the oil and sweat from my skin, which would have reacted with the Sodium Hydroxide (Lye, or NaOH) produced by the electrolytic reaction to form soap, which in combination with the chlorine and/or Hydrogen bubbles, would have made a nice froth, adding to the nastiness.

I'm not naming the Chiropractor's office that is selling this treatment, because I think they're nice guys who know their chiropractic, but are a little rusty on the chemistry. I'm going to show them some of the other materials I found and see if they'll refund our money and stop trying to sell this quackish treatment.


Want to see some of the products I'm talking about? Use the google search box on the top right of this page to look for "ionic foot bath" and you'll see all sorts of ads and websites for these scam artists. Many of them sell them by MLM as well. For shame.

Want to read about the science of this?
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=567466
http://www.raygirvan.co.uk/apoth/2004 ... c.html#108575608886281343

Here's a company that ran some experiments to try to prove that ionic foot baths work:
http://herballure.com/Studies/IonicFootSpa.html
As it turned out, chemical analysis showed no significant difference.

Here's a good article about evidence-based medicine and what it means to have a double-blind clinical study, which is what you would need to prove that a treatment like this worked.

- Rating: 6.00 (10 votes) - {$lang_ratethisnews}
 
The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content.

Poster Thread
WhosPlayin
Posted: 2006/11/28 21:55  Updated: 2006/11/28 21:55
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Just to clarify
My wife has never sold this treatment, and would not sell any product or service in which she didn't personally believe. It is NOT my belief that the practitioners of the ionic foot bath treatments are intentionally ripping people off, but rather that they've been duped. It's the manufacturers and distributors of these devices that make the dubious claims, and should be shut down.

If you ever have questions as to the legitimacy of any type of medical treatment or "body work" as they call it, Quack Watch is a good resource to check out the science.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/9/12 0:01  Updated: 2007/9/15 15:40
 Re: Just to clarify
I had checked Quackwatch before finding your article. I put in every form of ion foot bath you can imagine, but it came back with nothing.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/26 20:51  Updated: 2008/4/27 11:34
 Re: Just to clarify
Reply

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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/10/25 0:15  Updated: 2007/10/25 12:15
 Re: Just to clarify
Great article and conversation. I was amused to see you mention quackwatch! They are the greatest pessimists against everything except medicine! Read what they say about Chiropractic and you will never go back. Better yet, don't read what they say and continue to get the needed care from your Chiropractor. There is no lotion, potion, or pill that can do what Chiropractic can do. The AMA did studies to disprove Chiropractic that actually prove the effectiveness of Chiropractic care. Yet year after year, all I read is that beware scare of Chiropractic can cause stroke. Do a google search on the stats. 1 in 250 million cervical adjustments are suspected as the culprit of causing a stroke. 2 out of 3 times, it was caused by a Medical Doctor, not a Chiropractor! The scare should be "Warning! Medical Doctors trying to cash in on the Adjustment increases your chance of stroke by 66%!" Now take C-Section birthing. 1 in 250,000 end in death! Why aren't they publishing that risk when it is 1,000 times more risky to have a C-section than a neck adjustment by someone unqualified (MD) to administer one? Just food for thought while you are trying to get the image of cigarette smelling water out of your head. :)
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/10/25 12:33  Updated: 2007/10/25 12:33
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Re: Just to clarify
I think we have to approach everything with pessimism - including the medical establishment, chiropractors, energy healers, and so on.

I was skeptical about chiropractic, and still have my doubts about some of it, but I've seen it work. Further, it's licensed by the state and covered by insurance. These are good indicators that there is some validity to it.

On the other hand, no professional is 100% reliable. I hope that people will do due diligence on all treatment options and make the best decision based on all the information they can get - not just what they read here or elsewhere. When it comes down to it, each individual is responsible for their health.

With regard to chiropractic versus medical treatment, I just don't see why it has to be one or the other. When a person has a problem with muscle or bone, see a chiropractor first. When you have an infection, see a medical doctor. Don't ignore that both professions can help, but do be aware that both are capable of selling you a bunch of treatment that may not be as effective as something you can do for yourself.

For instance very few people will do a nasal irrigation when they get a head cold. It's one of the most effective things and it will clear you up most of the time without drugs. Yet it's uncomfortable, so we'd rather take drugs. People will get back surgery without seeing a chiropractor first. People will get knee surgery without trying acupuncture. People will take anti-depressants without trying talk therapy and meditation.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/11/5 18:53  Updated: 2010/11/5 20:54
 Re: Just to clarify
not covered by all insurance
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Anonymous
Posted: 2012/11/22 9:12  Updated: 2012/11/23 3:13
 Re: Just to clarify
"For instance very few people will do a nasal irrigation when they get a head cold. It's one of the most effective things and it will clear you up most of the time without drugs. Yet it's uncomfortable, so we'd rather take drugs."
If it's uncomfortable, you're doing it wrong! I use a neti pot (chronic sinusitis) and have no problem with it being "uncomfortable".
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Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 2007/11/15 16:41  Updated: 2007/11/15 19:54
 Re: Just to clarify
The "doctor" who runs the Quackwatch website has been exposed as a fraud who is not actually a doctor. He has ties to the FDA and Big Pharma. Only a few of the companies that make these footbaths really know how these machines provide benefit. Only a few of these footbaths are capable of providing benefit. These units do not draw toxins out of the feet, as many people claim. They actually supplement negative hydrogen ions, which have been shown in studies to provide undisputed benefits. Don't condemn the entire industry because most of the companies don't know what they're talking about. There are several units on the market that provide amazing results.

Webmaster Note: The IP Address of this comment shows it to be from Wellspring Products, AKA. Bella Spa Products, AKA. TheIonSpa.com - a Texas-based manufacturer of ionic foot bath devices.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/11/15 19:36  Updated: 2007/11/15 20:03
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Re: Just to clarify
There are several things to respond to here:

1. Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch. Because of the nature of his work, he has been sued and has sued others for libel. In some quick online research, all I was able to find about him is allegations. Nevertheless, I'm not in the business of defending any one person. The point is that there are some medically and scientifically sound articles on his site.

2. "Negative Hydrogen Ion Supplement" OK, walk me through the chemistry of this. How does the hydrogen anion get created? What is the corresponding cation? How does this ion manage to work its way into the body without crashing into a positive ion along the way and donating its electron? Finally, when it gets into the body, to what does it finally give up its electron?

3. Every "ionic foot bath" website I've seen is so full of pseudo-scientific quackery that I can't help but to be skeptical. If there are clinically proven units, from certain manufacturers that are more enlightened, bring them on.

Update: The poster of the last comment was from this manufacturer of foot baths. Their explanation is, I will admit, much less quackish and outlandish than some that I've seen. Still, all they describe is the electrolysis of water at 24 volts. Bella Spa Products sells the ionSpa by multi-level marketing - a troubling practice that almost guarantees false claims by its distributors.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/11/16 18:18  Updated: 2007/11/17 9:43
 Re: Just to clarify
Please be careful the information you post. The manufacturer of the ionspa is not a multilevel marketing scheme. please check your facts before jumping please.
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Poster Thread
WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/11/17 10:03  Updated: 2007/11/17 10:03
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Re: Just to clarify
Per the company's website: (The Ion Spa "Distributor Opportunities" page)
http://www.theionspa.com/ionSpaFamily.asp

6. Sign up Distributors and receive ongoing referral cash.


If they are asking their distributors to sign up other distributors to receive "ongoing referral cash", then they are in the business of multi-level marketing. I've found that quite a few MLM businesses and participants fail to understand that they are in MLM.

MLM is what it is - and this company may or may not be a part of the problem that has caused MLM to have a bad reputation. I can't make a judgment on this specific company. However, one of the problems with some MLMs is that they don't retain tight control over the sales claims that their distributors are making.

For instance, here's this claim by an Ion Spa distributor:
Detoxify your body and Remove the Root Cause of Health Problems Forever with an
Ionic Footbath that Pulls Toxins from your feet.

For people who want to live longer... "Discover How Deadly Toxins Have Been Killing You and
Your Family Slowly All These Years" and how you can remove these toxins from your body.

Did you know? "The Center for Disease Control (CDC) now reports that up to 95% of all chronic illnesses are caused by toxins and
pollutants that are in our bodies. You can remove the toxins that cause all kinds of diseases like MS, Lupus, Fibromyalgia, Cancer,
Alzheimers, Autism, and the list goes on and on."

Detoxify with the Ion Spa®

Now, since the manufacturer itself doesn't seem to make claims regarding "toxin removal", how does this type of selling stand? I would think that if I were a manufacturer and had people misrepresenting my product, I'd put a stop to it. Perhaps the money coming in helps to ease the conscience?

In my personal opinion, selling by MLM is a mark of the lack of legitimacy of a given product, in not being able to establish legitimate wholesale and retail channels. Perhaps someday I'll write a bit more on that, and we can have a wider discussion in that forum.
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Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 2009/1/8 21:11  Updated: 2009/1/9 8:49
 Re: Just to clarify
Man am I glad I found this site and read this thread. Was seriously considering buying one these worthless machines. Thanks for taking the time to post your findings!!
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Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 2009/2/27 16:41  Updated: 2009/3/1 10:03
 Re: Just to clarify
Gonna have to say I agree! I was going to buy a machine and start doing treatments! Thanks for the info!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/8/18 6:28  Updated: 2010/8/18 8:41
 Re: Just to clarify
Please do not believe the disaproval of ionic foot baths! I have used those for consecutive 6 months 2 x week when I had cancer and the water went from pitch black to clear yelowish, gradualy changing it's color every month. And if I feel stifness in my joints, it's gone after the batch. It DOES detox you!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/1/31 22:41  Updated: 2011/2/1 1:28
 Re: Just to clarify
I just used one on my 9 year old daughter recovering from the flu, followed by one for myself, also recovering from the flu. The colors in my daughters were much lighter and different than the colors in mine. I have used it for personal use on myself and friends for 3 years now; always seeing positive results. One friend stopped getting leg cramps after years of suffering with them. Another friend bent over to lift up the water to empty it right after a session, Only then relizing he did so without pain, which was why he was doing the treatment in the first place! My sister stopped getting skin rashes she had been getting for years. The list goes on. When I first got it, I ran it through without feet; it turned a little orange, but that was it. The colors do get lighter after doing a few treatments. These are my observations, as an owner of an"ion spa". I use it for personal use for myself and friends only, and have never charged anyone. The reason I bought it in the first place was because my brother used one for his Hep C, and is now in remission. I'm a true believer.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2012/10/29 16:32  Updated: 2012/10/29 22:01
 Re: Just to clarify
Hi, what machine are you using? I am trying to find one that works ( I am not wanting to buy one that is a scam, so I am going to buy one that some one recommends).

sissypooh27@yahoo.com
please email me.

I am into Holistic healing as well as Cellular nutrition (aka Herbalife). Please respond back to me with the ionic bath brand and model.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/9/14 18:16  Updated: 2010/9/14 18:29
 Re: Just to clarify
Yes that claim is a little over the tops but i personally have first hand seen massive improvement in a number of clients in a range of problems such as heavy metal(mercury) poisoned client, insomnia issue, a client that has graves disease and wanted to help rid some of the toxins from the body, It is proven to help and be beneficial for the human body:
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/11/16 20:06  Updated: 2007/11/17 9:31
 Re: Just to clarify
1) In one of the many trials that "Dr." Barrett testified in, he admitted his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission, and the FDA. He also conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. His title as a "doctor" made many people believe the false information that he has been posting for years.

2) Electrolysis of water breaks the water molecule into H- and OH+. Some of those ions can recombine, but they are being produced at a rate which allows many of the negative ions to be absorbed through the skin by the process of osmosis. This is proven because bodily fluids do register as more alkaline after peole use these units. These negative ions are, by definition, alkaline. Once in the body, they do negate free radicals and positive ions, which are acidic, by donating the extra electron that they carry. When they make it to the cellular level, they are used in the mitochondria to produce ATP, which is required for energy to carry out cellular activity. So, the ions help provide the energy for cells to perform their intended functions. One of the cells' intended functions is to eliminate waste. Many people who are sick are very acidic. Cancer requires an acidic environment to survive. By negating much of the acidity and creating a more neutral pH, the ions help to create a more healthy terrain within the body.

3) Most of the websites that you find will say that these units work by pulling toxins out. Only a portion of what is released in this process will come shooting out of your feet. Most of what is neutralized and expelled in this process will come out of your main avenues of detoxification, mainly urine, fecal matter, and perspiration. So, a small portion does end up in the footbath because the user sweats it out. You can run a unit without feet in the water, and quite a bit of color will appear. But, you will see even more color, material, and oily substances on top of the water when it is used with feet in the water. I have seen urinalysis results that showed that heavy metals were expelled. Samples were taken before and after a session and compared. And no, heavy metals are not used in the electrolysis process.

The companies in this industry do not have the money to spend for your double blinded, peer reviewed studies that pharmaceutical companies can easily afford. However, many studies were conducted on ionized air and its benefits, mainly by Russian and Israeli scientists in the 60's and 70's. The Russian Olympic teams had air ionizers in their Olympic quarters. Israeli scientists did studies using ionized air to treat seasonal depression. Their studies showed that air ionization helped with the depression tremendously. Seratonin levels were changed when patients were exposed to the ionization. There have been studies on the external application of ionized water on burns and other wounds. The studies showed that the ionized water definately accelerated the healing, usually by at least 50%.

The footbath supplements negative ions in a more efficient way than air ionization or bathing. By using the feet, we can ionize a small body of water and create a high concentration of ions, which makes for easier transfer by osmosis. Also, most people use the unit for 20-30 minutes, which is plenty of time for all of the blood in the body to make a complete circuit and be exposed to the ionization.

4) There are a few quality units on the market, but many of them are underpowered water color machines. Bohr's law of atomic physics states that you need at least 13.6 volts to break apart the water molecule. Many of the cheap machines operate on 9-12 volts, and they deliver even lower voltage to the array, which is the part that goes in the water. A few of the units operate on 24 volts, and a couple of them actually deliver a full 24 volts to the array. Those are the units that are capable of giving benefit to their users.

I hope this helps some.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/1 21:58  Updated: 2007/12/2 11:07
 Re: Just to clarify
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR IMPUT. I PAID FOR AN IONIC FOOT BATH AT A SPA THE OTHER DAY AND WAS AMAZED AT THE CHANGE OF THE WATER. THE NEXT DAY I FELT GREAT. I BEGAN TO RESEARCH THE IONIC FOOT BATH LOOKING TO PURCHASE A MACHINE FOR HOME USE. WHEN I CAME ACROSS THE "HOAX" INFORMATION I WAS SO DISAPPOINTED. YOUR INPUT HAS HELPED ME TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS POSITIVE RESULTS TO BE HAD FROM THE IONIZATION PROCESS. THE WAY THAT I FEEL IS INDISPUTABLE. I WILL BUY A MACHINE FOR HOME WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THE "CRUD" IN THE WATER IS NOT COMING OUT OF MY BODY, BUT THAT DETOXIFICATION WILL OCCUR THROUGH MY BODIES OWN NATURAL METHODS.
THANK YOU AGAIN FOR HELPING ME SEE THE PROCESS FOR WHAT IT TRULY IS.
TERRI, COLORADO
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/9 1:50  Updated: 2008/1/9 8:07
 Re: Just to clarify
Well I am truly amazed. In all my years studying chemistry in school I never once heard of OH+ and H- ions being created through electrolysis of water. The hydroxide ion (OH)is always negative. Please tell me this was a typo. The only other water associated ion I know of is H3O+, the hydroxonium ion, which is more to to with acid/base reactions rather than electrolysis.

Oh dear.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/12/1 15:09  Updated: 2009/12/1 15:35
 Re: Just to clarify
I have been using an Ionic Footbath for more than 3 years. It has helped reduce the swelling in my legs and feet. I am not an expert on this, but I know it's positive results have been a blessing to me.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/4/2 8:40  Updated: 2010/4/2 9:30
 Re: Just to clarify
from a chemistry standpoint, this explanation makes more sense than most. bravo
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/4/19 15:11  Updated: 2010/4/19 16:07
 Re: Just to clarify
You are so full of #OOPS# your eyes are tuning brown!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/9/4 8:55  Updated: 2010/9/4 9:30
 Re: Just to clarify
which unit is the best that would run of 24volts?
I heard there is a russian brand that is good.any suggestins?
thanks...
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Anonymous
Posted: 2014/2/28 21:55  Updated: 2014/3/1 15:56
 Re: Just to clarify
I was skeptical about the footbath, but I really trusted my friend who had the machine and she really believed in it, so I got a few. One day, I went in for my Ion Cleanse (the brand she uses) and my joints were hurting. Being a massage therapist, this used to happen from time to time. I would just ice my hands and massage them, but basically just had to wait it out, accepting it as part of my job.

After this cleanse, I noticed my joints didn't hurt anymore. Interesting. Over the next year, I noticed this happened every time I got a cleanse when my joints were hurting. I was hooked. From that point on, whenever my knuckles and wrists would begin to ache, I would book a cleanse.

That was years ago, and I still get cleanses because I know that they are keeping my joints clean and my joints rarely get to the point of aching anymore.

Also, two years ago, I began to read about the body's pH and how most Americans are walking around pretty acidic. I also learned that these acids gather in the joints. If the joints aren't 'cleaned' in some way, the build up will harden and become osteo arthritis.

I have since added regular use of apple cider vinegar to keep my body from getting too acidic. It's a great way to get my pH back to normal if I have been eating too many acidic foods.

All that to say this:

The negative ions in the water attach to the acids in the body to neutralize them. Which explains the relief I feel. However nowadays, when I'm achy from overwork, in any part of my body, I just ramp up the apple cider vinegar to free up my joints.

I look at all of this the same way I look at the oil light coming on in my car. If my joints start to hurt, then I have let my food/sleep/work choices get out of control and it's time to rebalance. I try to never 'let the oil light come on' by being proactive about the amount of toxins I am carrying around in my body. I can do this by detoxing.

I have seen the evidence. It works. I have also seen a footbath run without feet. The water changes color for the first few minutes, then plateaus. The results are nothing like with the presence of feet.

If anyone out there has candida, lyme disease, autism, achiness or any other issue that alludes medicine, I would give ion footbaths a fair try. I know too many people who have been helped too much to ignore. My same friend just told me about a current client who is healing lyme's. I have heard lots of stories from mothers who saw improvements in their autistic children. This is thought to be because of the chelation (sp?)-removal of metals.

Also, look into Rife.

Thanks for posting this! I was a skeptic once too!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/20 2:18  Updated: 2007/12/20 14:08
 Your test has been done before.
It is amazing that people claim to have proof are about as educated in science as you. Then you have professional doctors, who believe they have been bathed in science yet are so narrow minded(brain washed) that they might as well be in a cult. I guess it must be your brand of science to blame the manufacturer because whoever bought the product just started using it and never read the instructions. I am guilty of buying electronic devices and threw away the instructions. Not sure which manufacturers you are targeting but the ones I have checked out spell it out that when you put the electrodes in water without feet it will change colors. So what were you trying to prove? One of my tests will be a blood test before and after. If you are really interested in more proof for your limited amount of research call me and I will let you know my results. Tom 858-901-4817 or email me at gratisgas@yahoo.com I appreciate that you at least attemped to disprove a products usefulness, but your research lacks imagination. Please tell me you are not in bed with the FDA or Drug Manufacturers.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/20 14:15  Updated: 2007/12/20 14:15
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 Re: Your test has been done before.
Nope, I'm not involved with FDA or any drug manufacturers. When my wife was first sold the treatment, the color change was attributed to "Toxins" leaving the body. You can still find many independent distributors and practitioners selling that, though the manufacturers seem to have all stopped promoting that since this article was first published. The current theory is "negative hydrogen ions" float around and somehow make it into the body "by osmosis" and find good stuff to do.

My test was more of a demonstration than experiment, because I knew what would happen. The sort of clinical proof one would have to come up with on a device like this is beyond my means and education, but that doesn't mean I can't read a study and decide whether it was designed correctly and carried out objectively or not.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2014/3/18 15:48  Updated: 2014/3/20 6:55
 Re: Your test has been done before.
I'm curious...how did your wife FEEL after the treatments? I don't recall you mentioning that...
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/8 15:45  Updated: 2008/1/8 16:14
 Re: Just to clarify
Thanks for the comments on the ionic foot bath. I have seen this in a few of offices where I have done some fill-in work. While the appearance of the "gunk" in the previously clear water is impressive, I always wondered what the results would be if the current were run in a water bath sans feet.

I would, however, like to comment on the positive results I have seen from the use of these devices. I sent three individuals, one of whom was my own mother, to the office of a DC who uses this device. One lady had very severe inflammation around her elbow, probably as a result of bursitis, one gentleman, a diabetic, had painful, beefy red legs and was almost certainly on his way to a bilateral amputation, and my mother was suffering from significant post-chemotherapeutic peripheral neuropathy. All three of these indivduals had bee seen by their respective MD's multiple times and were told that there was no further treatment available to alleviate their symptoms. In the spirit of "It might not help but it almost certainly won't hurt..." I sent them to this office, where they received between two and five treatments, each. I have to say in each case there were very positive results, both from an objective and subjective standpoint. The lady with the bursitis had significant reduction in pain, swelling and redness (she had placed her elbow, not her feet, directly into the bath). The diabetic man had dramatic reduction in pain, redness, and overall improvement of skin quality. My mother, having treated both her hands and feet in the bath, had approximately 50% improvement in her subjective symptoms of pain and numbness. She is asking me to buy one of these devices for general family use.

I don't know how much these anecdotal observations mean but thought I would add them to the general comments on the subject. I would also like to add that the Quack Watch website is notoriously negative on any treatment, including chiropractic, which does not follow the mainline allopathic model of health care.

Thanks for both your experiment and for reporting the results in a fair way.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/10/30 14:22  Updated: 2009/10/30 14:42
 Re: Just to clarify
I had one of these treatments day before yesterday and was so impressed with the results that I'm online now to buy one.
Results:
1)The water on my L knee present from a knee injury as a teen has kept me from bending that knee in the last 3-4 years. I now can after the treatment.
2)Very much increased energy.
3)Body bloat is greatly decreased.
4)Could walk up/down some long stairs with former vigor and use of legs without the usual weakness I've had for the last 3-4 years.
5) Walked straighter because the pain in the spine was greatly reduce.
6) Got my "swish" back because I could pivot my hips from the rest of my body while keeping my chest off my waist...........an old skater's trick to center gravity.

So,yes, it did work for me. And, I'm in the medical field and quite the skeptic. And, I believe in the use of chiropracty as well.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/3/1 12:43  Updated: 2010/3/1 18:56
 Re: Just to clarify
Me too, what kind did you get?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/10/10 9:13  Updated: 2008/10/10 11:22
 Re: Just to clarify
I am not a scientist, but I am the mother of a child with very severe allergies and asthma. I have been taking him to a chiropractor for four months, with accompanying foot baths. I can tell you this with the knowledge that it is true. He has been reacting less to environmental toxins, by a huge percentage, sense we started the foot baths. That is all the proof I need!
And about "knowledgeable doctors", I had four different pediatric doctors tell me that children could not have allergies before the age of 1yr. and yet he was covered in eczema from head to toe and he frequently would projectile vomit when I was trying to follow the "doctor's knowledgeable advice" and feed him things that it turned out he really was allergic to! My skepticism is all for paramedical medicine, most of which my son reacts to. We have been using herbs and other natural remedies for over four years with amazing results. My son is actually a functioning child again, instead of a very sick child as he was when I was trying to use the "knowledge of doctors". Now those are the quacks!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/9/4 9:06  Updated: 2010/9/4 9:31
 Re: Just to clarify
what company was the foot bath and what herbs and natural methods have you been using, as I have a child with many allergies and asthma also. doctors after doctors with no help..please let me know!! thank you so much
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/11/16 12:17  Updated: 2011/11/16 13:55
 Re: Just to clarify
I took the baths before my surgery 3 times a week for 2 weeks Thank God pain was neerly half of what i expierenced with my last surgery, vinton coffman, from missouri
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/11/16 17:44  Updated: 2011/11/16 19:03
 Re: Just to clarify
You DO realize that the pain from surgery, even identical surgery, is completely unpredictable from one instance to the next. There are infinite variables that work to either create or ease pain after surgery, and the perception of pain is completely subjective.

Did you have exactly the same complications after surgery? Do you know that you took the exact same medications? Did you take them at the exact same intervals? Did you sit and lie in exactly the same positions afterwards, on the same furniture, and at the same times? Was the barometric pressure following the same levels at the same intervals as your last procedure? Do you get the exact same amount of rest at the same times? Was the surgical cut exactly the same? Was every step of the previous surgery identical in every way to the last detail? Were nerves that were cut in a previous procedure grown back to exactly the same locations and sensitivity? The list of inconsistencies is endless.

Ultimately your comment is, at best, taken with a grain of ionic salt. At least you thanked God, and not the baths, for the difference. That has a better chance of explaining your reduced pain.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/10/22 19:24  Updated: 2008/10/22 19:38
 Just in the nick of time!!!
I sure am glad that I found this article today.... Was just about to give someone $50.00 for a treatment. This woman had even went a step further on her pamphlet to explain:

The meaning of the colors and objects found in the water during the bath!!

Yellow/green= detoxification from the kidneys,
bladder, urinary tract,
female/male reprod. organs

Orange= Detoxification from the joints

Brown= Detoxification from the liver, tobacco,
cellular debris

Black= Detoxification from liver

Dark green= Detoxification from the gallbladder

White foam= Mucus from lymph

White cheese like particles= Most likely yeast

Black flecks= Heavy metals

Red flecks= blood clot material

No thanks!!! I think I'll pass!!!!! Detroit, Michigan
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/1/9 0:06  Updated: 2009/1/9 8:49
 Re: Just to clarify
We've used this process and felt and continue to feel better days after. My question to you, being so knowledgeable is, what is your profession,trade or craft to come up with such a high scientific test as putting to battery charger leads into water with a copper or metal product which will inturn breakdown in water.......have you ever heard of rust?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/4/30 11:34  Updated: 2009/4/30 14:13
 Re: Just to clarify
My cousin and aunt and uncles tried something like this at some convention or something. The water definitely changed color, but they also found worms inside the water. My cousin had a HUGE worm in hers. I've heard this from other people who have tried this too. No one seems to have mentioned anything about that here, but any idea what that's all about?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/5/20 13:47  Updated: 2009/5/20 16:31
 Re: WORMS!!??
Do they actually have a real sample? I highly doubt it. Sounds like something added to the water that looked like a worm. Remember those "sea pets" you could buy from comic books in the 60's, you put these tabs in water and they expand and look like worms.
The foot bath seems to have the same results that all the Snake Oil Hawkers have been selling for hundreds of years. The power of the mind/being to change things by believing. I don't doubt the results/benefits some people claim to get. But I put forward that they are doing it themselves by deciding it is true for them. Could it be that thought or postulate is senior to the physical?
beedeedog2000@yahoo.com
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/7/7 14:25  Updated: 2009/7/7 18:05
 Re: Just to clarify
I have read through all the great posts about the Ionic Foot Bath. Personally I have never done it but my husband has and he claims very positive results. My feelings on this and basically any procedure that is done for therapeutic purposes is if the person receiving the services BELIEVES it is going to help or work - then the person will be helped. Mind over matter. That is not to say it truly doesn't have some principal reason it works - there has been a lot of good explanations regarding the pros and cons of the Ionic Foot Bath.

I am wondering why a hot tub filled with the bromine (salt water) version of chlorine wouldn't give the person the same potential results - as quoted before the person would expel the majority of the toxins through, sweating, fecal, and urine (hopefully the two later AFTER getting out of the hot tub).

My two cents :)
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/7/11 18:20  Updated: 2009/7/11 23:19
 Re: Just to clarify
You are a complete idiot. You have no idea what you are talking about! Just because you did one little experiment you think that you are an expert. I have treated over 1000 people and I always explain to everyone that some colors will occur even if their feet aren't in the water. It has to do with many elements such as the chemicals in the water, the erosion of the array in the water, the sea salt that is added and even the air around the water has some affect on the outcome. It can be anywhere from 30% to 50% of what you see at the end of a treatment is not from the user but the rest is. I don't get excited by what I see in the water but the physical improvements that I have seen countless number of times. This machine saved my life because after eating a tainted fish I got ciguatera (fish toxin poisoning), I turned completely grey and every joint in body was so painful that I couldn't even open a jar. I had this condition for over 7 years. After only two treatments my pain was gone and after a few more my skin color started coming back to normal. I have seen diabetics come to me with their toes completely white and their doctors have told them that they would have to cut their feet off. Their skin color (due to the increased circulation that this treatment provided) came back and they didn't have to have their feet cut off. I have seen physical improvement in so many people that I can't even count them all. It's people like you that give something that could actually be saving lives a bad name, you should be shot!
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2009/7/11 23:25  Updated: 2009/7/11 23:53
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 Threats?
I did my experiment precisely because practitioners were claiming that color change meant something. But in the grand scheme of things, my demonstration is nothing compared to the lack of clinical evidence that these machines actually do anything.

If these foot baths are really doing something, it should be very simple to subject them to scientific inquiry. The placebo effect is an amazingly real thing. Even if this is bullshit, I still wouldn't be bothered if it were at least cheap. But the fact that people are selling treatments for $35, and units for up to $1200 - well, it needs to be looked into.

Sorry if asking people to back up their claims is costing you sales.

The most amazing thing about your post though, is that with all the political stuff I normally write, I have this one post about the stupid foot bath, and you're the first one to suggest that I deserve the death penalty.

So, my question is: Is this you?

Quinnie's Nail Salon & Spa
375 Huku Lii Place #210
Kihei, Maui, HI 96732
phone: (808) 875-2111
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/7/14 7:51  Updated: 2009/7/14 9:48
 Re: Threats?
I say "whatever" to the person that posted from Hawaii! Our minds are capable of more than we realize...I believe these baths to be a hoax too.

Wow! your getting viewers all the way from Hawaii!? You so popular! LOL
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/3/3 17:38  Updated: 2010/3/3 23:43
 Re: Just to clarify
WHY can you not make your point without NAME CALLING and using words like- "you should be shot"?

I came to this site to read opinions and gain some knowledge from ALL. Yet people like you ruin the experience. Please take my suggestions and learn to have a mature healthy discussion and leave OUT all name calling etc........

Chris in Minnesota
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/11/9 14:25  Updated: 2011/11/9 14:30
 Re: Just to clarify
Calling someone an idiot and saying they should be SHOT tells me a great deal about your character!!! I would NOT rely on ANYTHING YOU SAY!!!!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/9/13 21:28  Updated: 2009/9/14 7:57
 Re: Just to clarify
The ionic foot bath that I used had stainless steel neg. and pos. I tried a test also and found without the immersion of my feet the water turned rusty. I scrubbed my feet then put them in the water, my god it turned black with green piles of crud floating around in it. I was shocked! In two weeks the worst case of athlete’s feet was completely cleared up, call it what you want nothing ever cleared my feet up until now. May be mind over matter but I really don't care.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/9/4 9:15  Updated: 2010/9/4 9:31
 Re: Just to clarify
really? what one did you use that had stainless steel.neg and pos..I would like to get that one, for stainless steel is thought to be the best
thanks looking to purchase one
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/12/27 18:22  Updated: 2010/12/27 18:30
 Re: Just to clarify
just reading everyone's comments about the foot-bath ionizer. did you ever get the info on the stainless unit? if so would you share that info? thanks
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/8/10 9:02  Updated: 2011/8/10 10:56
 Re: Just to clarify
Hello Fellow Skeptics. My wife has been getting treatments using an ionic footbath. I too was skeptical. But then I went with her one day. The water she soaked her feet in turned brown, then green, then foamy and black. OK - so I understand basic chemistry, and assumed all the variations in color and mass in the water resulted from the levels of chlorine and minerals in the water. But then the parasites began to appear. First pinworms. Then a couple of liver flukes, and another longer thinner type of roundworm. Then a fourth type, a feathery flatworm looking prehistoric type thing which we haven't identified yet but believe to be one of the larval stages of perhaps the flatworms. So here we have worms coming out of the pores of her feet. All the next day after treatment she reported seeing a great number of pinworms in her stool. My wife started taking drugs to kill roundworms and he continued her treatments with the footbath over the next several days. Gradually the number of worms decreased. And the colors in the water changed from darker greens and blacks to clearer rust colors, indicating more of the type of rust you would expect from the electrolysis process and less of the so-called detoxification from her body. Next I tried the treatments. My water turned different colors than hers, I had varying shades of green, and white foam. Then the pinworms began to appear in my water. The next day I too had many dead pinworms in my feces. Oh, and I witnessed the arrays used in my footbath being unwrapped, brand new from sealed plastic packaging. Apparently this ionizing process does work. It does draw unwanted things from the body through the large pores of the feet, (or hands as I also witnessed,) through the process of electrolysis and osmosis. Whatever debunking is going on in these forums, based on so-called good science, is apparently wrong. The ionic footbath does do at least some of what is claimed. I witnessed and experienced it myself directly.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2011/8/10 10:57  Updated: 2011/8/10 10:57
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 Parasites
Was any of this documented with photos? Did a licensed medical pathologist examine you and your wife, and identify the parasites?
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Runfellow
Posted: 2011/8/10 22:54  Updated: 2011/8/10 22:54
Guest Columnist (Verified User)
Joined: 2011/3/17
From: Lewisville, TX
Posts: 294
 Re: Just to clarify
Hey, can you do me a favor? Don't ever write anything ever again. Thanks.
-BC
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PKelly
Posted: 2011/8/15 9:00  Updated: 2011/8/15 9:00
Contributor (Verified User)
Joined: 2010/2/14
From:
Posts: 185
 Re: Just to clarify
I'm tellin' ya - this thread is the second sign of the Zombie Apocalypse - it will not die...
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/8/24 21:14  Updated: 2011/8/24 21:14
 Re: Just to clarify
OK bright boy....how smart do you have to be to play around with jumper cables in a glass of water....you obviously are independently wealthy or out of work....I just hope your lovely wife has your insurance paid up!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2013/6/17 1:52  Updated: 2013/6/17 7:50
 Re: Just to clarify
I have used the ionic foot baths on two occasions on and I felt a noticeable difference in the improvement of the feeling in my legs. The operator (not a D.C. of CMT but a Certified Foot Reflexologist) did connect an electrode to my left wrist with the circuit being completed in the bath itself. For 30 minutes she ran the current + on my wrist and - in the bath. Then she reversed the current for another 30 minutes. The water turned every color imaginable and by the end of the hour it looked as if pond scum had been pulled from inside me. Was it external oil, bacteria in my pores, or actually internal toxins? I can't say for sure as it would take advanced imaging equipment to determine with any certainty. All I know is I felt good afterward.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2006/11/29 1:30  Updated: 2006/11/29 9:31
 Awesome...
Wow... cool experiment. I probably would have been intrigued and not stopped to think about logistics. Any ideas as to why the one your wife witnessed had the smell of cigarette smoke?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2006/12/1 9:11  Updated: 2006/12/1 9:11
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Posts: 3892
 Re: Awesome...
It's hard to say with the cigarette smell... Could just be that such a heavy smoker would normally sweat that sort of smell into warm water, Or maybe it was that the bubbling through the water somehow got the smell into the air. Another possible explanation was that it was just the power of suggestion. Smokers generally carry a bit of the smoke smell on them, so the smell was likely already there to some extent. Just the suggestion of the smell of smoke could have induced sort of a group perception.

I'd like to see a real scientific study of this though.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/5/25 2:04  Updated: 2007/5/25 7:28
 Ionic foot bath research
am Steve at ionicoasis.com , here is a research paper we found recently on the internet about ionic foot baths.
When I copy and paste the article you may not be able to veiw the pictures of before and after results. you can veiw them at

http://www.aquadetox-international.com/research.html

The excerpt below has been taken from the article printed in CAM magazine in September 2005 and has been reproduced with the permission of Dr Sanjay Chaudhuri and CAM magazine.

[Removed by WhosPlayin for copyright reasons]
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/5/25 7:35  Updated: 2007/5/25 7:35
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 Re: Ionic foot bath research
The article referenced is not a peer-reviewed and properly controlled scientific study. It's a bunch of pseudo-scientific gobbledy gook that makes me sad about the state of science education in this country.

A scientific study would have to have at least 60 - 100 participants, be placebo controlled, and quantitatively measure so-called "toxins" in the water and in the blood of the subjects both before and after treatments.

The article referenced shows a small bit of anecdotal 'evidence' from pictures - it's about as intensive as my little kitchen-counter experiment.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/3/12 20:45  Updated: 2011/3/12 21:05
 Re: Ionic foot bath research
You are a chemist and maybe you believe that these double blind crossover trials on a large number of people are the gold standard, as many chemists and doctors do. You also speak about the ion cleanse footbaths being a placebo effect and cast doubt on a lot of stuff you simply have no in depth knowledge of, such as energy medicine, which comes in many forms. With your scientific background, could you please explain how a footbath works on a 12 month old with severe diaper rash? Or on an 84 year old woman with a really bad dermatitis complaint. She is well into dementia and no way would mind over matter count.

Just to change subject briefly, we have been told incessantly for 60 years that vaccines work and have wiped out many diseases. Can you please provide the data of the scientific trials that were done on the vaccines that proved any to be safe and effective? Please keep in mind, you are not impressed by anecdotal evidence, so opinions don't count, just hard scientific proof. Concocted charts that show only a part of the graph are not acceptable.

I do appreciate that you brought up the subject of foot baths, but would ask you to allow that even you could be wrong at times. It doesn't matter a hoot if one of your replies came from a salon in Hawaii or anywhere else that uses the devices. Just because they don't have a piece of wallpaper saying they are a chemist does not preclude them from being able to observe results. There are some charlatans but please don't class all who don't do it your way as charlatans.

By the way, I don't sell these devices or any others and I don't use them. However, after reading all these posts I am certainly going to look into doing so, so thanks again for the column
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/9/14 2:10  Updated: 2011/9/14 8:22
 Re: Ionic foot bath research
Hello. I had a few of these treatments done with my parents years ago (about 7 yrs). My Dad is a HUGE skeptic & we had to practically force him into the soaking basin (lol), but after only about 5 treatments the gout in his leg was nearly gone. It was so amazing! The lady who did the treatments was in school at the time & did not charge us anything, but took lots of pictures. I wish I knew how to contact her so I could post the "before, during, & after" pics for you. His water was always a brownish diarrhea look, my Mom's was a greenish diarrhea look, & mine was pretty clear except that the surface was covered in black flakes. I'm a smoker & I wondered if that was tar coming out of my system. She said she had no idea what the colors meant if anything. We were all so impressed with how great we felt afterward, whatever the cause. I believe they help. I do not know how or what exactly they do to help, but I completely stand behind them based on how much my Dad's leg cleared up. It has been about 6 yrs since his last treatment & his leg is looking more red & swollen again (though still not as bad as it was before the treatments). I am currently in school to become a massage therapist & I do believe I will offer this service in my practice after graduation. I don't understand why people are charging so much for the service & I intend to charge much less (probably $15). Based on everyone's "hang up" on the color issue, I have no intention to pretend or claim that I know what the color means, if anything at all. I will also not give an explanation as to "how it works", since that is not proven yet. All I know is that it does work & if anyone wants it, I will provide it, but have no intention to "push" it on anyone. I will recommend it if I feel it will be of assistance (not diagnosing or treating mind you) but will never "make it part" of someone's "bodywork program". Thank you for your thoughts on it, I hope someday you will have the opportunity to see for yourself it's true & amazing results :)
Heather, CO
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/9/14 9:34  Updated: 2011/9/14 10:47
 Re: Ionic foot bath research
Hey! My mom used to feed us gobbledy gook! It was just like Goulash but with hotdogs.

--Allie
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/9/14 12:34  Updated: 2011/9/14 14:04
 Re: Ionic foot bath research
What does that have to do with anything???
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/6/16 10:17  Updated: 2007/6/16 13:44
 Thanks for your post!
I work at a spa that offers the "ionic foot bath" and knew it was a case of ignorance of chemistry, as you've said. No one else there agrees with me, of course. Plus, the unit's a cheap one from China and I'm not so sure someone won't get electrocuted eventually. Yikes! We're supposed to promote it, but I just can't/won't.
A Skeptical LMT
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/6/16 13:49  Updated: 2007/6/16 13:49
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 No, thank YOU!
Thank YOU for sticking to your guns. This kind of pseudo-scientific quackery damages the reputation of the business in general and puts a negative connotation on the other services you offer, which have legitimate and proven effects.

Besides, I'm not sure that your license would even cover such a thing. I think that the typical sales pitch for this kind of device falls under the "diagnosing and treating" umbrella. I really wish that the medical establishment and/or attorneys general of the states would take on the sellers of these devices under fraud statutes, so that peoples' healthcare dollars would be spent on more effective treatments for whatever it is that ails them.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/10/15 20:03  Updated: 2007/10/15 20:09
 Re: No, thank YOU!
You are a fool sir. If you had witnessed multiple people do these at the same time you would see a huge disparity in the color, consistency, texture, and smell that is produced from person to person. Nice try explaining with your "experiment". but if it were true then all water would look near identical with each different person. What's funny is you don't beleive in this because you don't understand the chemistry involved.. Not surprised you're from Texas.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/10/15 20:36  Updated: 2007/10/15 20:41
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 Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
Wow. Disparaging people from Texas doesn't fly here. Since you think you're a scientist, let me set you straight on a very simple reason why the water is different with each person:

People have different body chemistries. Soaking one's feet in water will produce sweat and various natural oils. When these oils and salts are electrolyzed, they will produce various colors depending on the metals used in the electrodes, and the salt used in the water - as well as the chemicals present in the water already.

The purpose of my experiment was to show that colors and precipitate will occur without the presence of feet. The reason for this is that the quacks and scammers who sell this ineffective treatment do not understand chemistry and try to convince their suckers that the color means that it's working.

To prove scientifically that the treatment was doing *anything*, you would have to prove that the electrolysis going on was doing more than just a foot soak in non electolyzed water was doing.

A possible design for this experiment would be to have a subject put one foot in each of two tubs, one of which was simply warm saline water, and the other of which was electrolyzed. After the treatment, the non-electrolyzed tub would need to be electrolyzed *without* feet in it such that both tubs contained all of the foot sweat, and were electrolyzed.

You'd then run a quantitative analysis on each tub and look for differences in chemistry. If as the scammers say, this process removes "toxins" then there should be "toxins" in the water that was electrolyzed with feet in the water. Device manufacturers claim this removes heavy metals from the bloodstream. If so, there should be more heavy metals in the test water than in the control water.

Of course, you'd have to do this to at least 30 pairs of feet to get a semi-statistically significant sampling. Further, you might want to get two groups of people, treat some with a placebo foot soak and others with an electrolytic foot soak. You'd then have to analyze their blood and see whether the level of "toxins" or heavy metals were reduced.

The problem, of course, is that the gullible practitioners and junior-college dropouts that sell this bunk do not have the resources or know-how to run these types of clinical experiments. (or even read a study and know whether it's a valid setup) Thus, they turn to pseudo-science - or in your case - name calling.

Let me guess: you must be from Georgia? (I'm not guessing, I'm looking at your IP address) I know lots of smart people there. Maybe you can check out Georgia Tech and get yourself some training in the scientific method.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/11/16 20:07  Updated: 2007/11/17 9:32
 Re: Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
the ability of the body to uptake negative ionization has been known for almost 80 years. Air ionization is a very low concentration in comparison to bath facing electrolysis. If you wish I can post many more studies with additional modalities of the human body gaining measured medical benefits in controlled studies thru the decades. The footbath seems to just be a different modality. I assume you do not have many credentials in your education involving the human pathology. The reason I am saying this is that you make many assumptions in your logic to come to a result that fits your view. please read the first of many studies that can be posted after this quote.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”
-Herbert Spencer

P.S.- I AM A REPUBLICAN

THIS IS NOT A COPYRIGHTED DOCUMENT


Effect of Negative Air Ion Treatment on Blood Serotonin in Weather Sensitive Patients Y Pfeifer & FG Sulman This research was made possible by a generous grant from Mr. & Mrs. Herman Lane N.Y. and the Felton International Inc N.Y. ABSTRACT. - Positive air ionization elicited by hot dry desert wind spells (Sharav) was found to correlate with blood serotonin in 20 weather sensitive patients increasing from 14-20 mg% to 21-29 mg%. Exposure of 12 of these patients to artificial negative air ionization during 3-6 hours brought blood serotonin back to normal values of 15-20 m% (p,0.001-0.005), while in the 8 control patients, who did not receive the ionizing treatment, there remained a high of 21-31 m%. The 12 treated patients had received during 3-6 hours from a grounded ionizer (Modulion) a negative ion load ranging between 2.5 x 105 = 2.5 x 104 ions/cm3/s. Thus, it can be concluded that increased concentration of positive ions in the air increases blood serotonin levels, whereas negative air ionization neutralizes the effect of positive air ionization and reduces blood serotonin levels to normal values. INTRODUCTION The use of negative air ionizing apparatuses has increased recently due to the enthusiastic reports of their success in the lay press (Soyka and Edmonds, 1977). Negative air ionization has been progressively introduced in Europe for daily use. It has also been found useful in telephone exchanges, airplane cockpits, post offices, tunnels and buildings where air conditioning may produce a positive ion stream which has to be neutralized by ionizer's with high negative output (Sulman, 1976). There seems to be no doubt that positive air ionization - in contradistinction to the negative one - produces highly unpleasant reactions due to serotonin release (Krueger, 1972). Weather sensitive people report before the arrival of positive ion rich thunderstorms that they become irritable and anxious, and they may be subject to heart oppression, palpitations, dyspnoe and migraine. Others complain of insomnia, tension, oedemata, rheumatic pain, scar aching, precordial pain, flushes with sweat or chills, vasomotor rhinitis, hyperperistalsis and polakisuria. We were able to show that these complaints are provoked by the prevalence of positive air ions which may completely replace the negative ions. This ion shift to the positive charge releases serotonin (Danon and Sulman, 1969). The passage of hot or cold weather fronts in Israel is characterised by abnormally high counts of positive ions and sferics which provoke the "Serotonin Irritation Syndrome" (SIS) (Sulman et al., 1976). Quantitatively hot fronts excel in high positive ion counts and cold fronts in high sferics counts (Sulman, 1980). In view of these findings we studied the effect of protracted negative air ionization on human blood serotonin and other common blood parameters. MATERIALS AND METHODS IONIZING APPARATUS. - Negative ions were generated by the Modulion(R) ionizer of Amcor-Amron (Herzliya, Israel) which contains four ionizing needles, each with a 5,000v charge. They
produce corona discharges each emitting 2.5 x 1011 ions/s/mm3. As a Modulion can be used at a distance of 1-4m, the actual ion density reaching a patient is 2.5 x 105 or 104 ions. The specifications of the apparatus are: 220/240v, 50/60Hz. A control neon light built into the on/off switch flashes to indicate working condition. The 4 needles can be touched without receiving any unpleasant electrical discharge as the short circuit current on the high voltage side is limited to, 0.1mA. Power consumption is 2W only. Dimensions: length - 14.5cm, width - 9.5cm and height - 7.5cm. Production of ozone and nitrous oxides is reduced to a minimum and at a distance of 10cm ozone could not be traced by 0.05/a Draeger Detection Tubes. Electrically charged aerosols have not been encountered. Design is according to international and European safety standards (VDE, SEV, and IEC). The casing of the Modulion is grounded which guarantees a stable and continuous ion flux. Measurements of ions, sferics and electrofields were carried out using the method of Sulman et al., 1976. They showed that weather sensitive patients suffered only from changes in ion and sferics counts, not, however, from extreme fluctuations of the electrofields. PATIENTS. - Twenty weather sensitive patients suffering from incoming hot weather fronts were chosen for the present study. They comprised 12 females and 8 males. Their sufferings began 24-48 hours before the arrival of the weather front, thus stressing the medical importance of the weather front which precedes the actual weather change. The complaints included typical symptoms of the Serotonin Irritation Syndrome (SIS), as described by Danon and Sulman, 1969, such as migraine, multiple oedemata of face (Quincke), fingers or legs, heart palpitations, dyspnoe, hot flushes with sweat or chills, vasomotoric rhinitis resembling hay fever, conjunctivitis resembling conjunctivitis vernalis, rheumatic pain of the extremities, hyperperistalsis resulting in multiple defecation and polakisuria including hourly micturition. SIS sufferings could be predicted by our daily monitoring of air ions, sferics and electrofields during the 3 Sharav months March April May 1979. When the patients complained of SIS symptoms 24-48 hours before the arrival of the weather front - 10ml of blood were taken to measure blood serotonin at zero hour (Sample I), and again on the arrival of the weather front 1-5 hours later (Sample II). Then 12 of the patients were exposed to negative air ionization, which could be discontinued after 3-6 hours, as all of them reacted favorably; the remaining 8 patients who served as controls were not given negative air ionization. Subsequently, 10ml of blood were again taken from all patients including the controls for comparison at different time intervals (Sample III). BLOOD ASSAYS. - Blood serotonin was assayed according to Yuwiler et al., 1970: 5ml blood were transferred to a tube containing 0.06ml of a K3 EDTA solution with 0.2mg/ml of potassium sorbate. To avoid serotonin destruction or release from thrombocytes the tube was gently inverted and placed on ice until used. Another 5ml of coagulated blood were transferred to a sequential multiple analyzer (SMA) for determination of sodium, potassium, CO2, chloride, glucose, urea nitrogen, cholesterol, total protein, albumin, total bilirubin alkaline phosphatase and serum glutamine oxaloacetic transaminase (3GOT). 5-HIAA was not assayed since its blood level is too low to allow exact determinations. RESULTS Table 1 shows the results obtained with the 20 patients studied, 12 of whom were exposed to 3-6 hours of negative air ionization during an incoming Sharav weather front and 8 of whom had a dummy apparatus switched on for control. The cases selected were those where positive air ionization preceding a weather front would allow prediction of their typical manifestation of a serotonin reaction. In all cases blood serotonin values were within normal range when patients came in (14-20 mg)% (SE + 1.7)*. These rose, however, within 2 days with the arrival of the weather front, ranging between 21-29mg% (SE + 1.8)* and decreased on the third day to 14-20mg% (SE + 2)* following ionizing treatment. In the controls, (i.e., no negative ions) high values of blood serotonin (28-29mg %) (SE + 1.9)* persisted as long as the Sharav lasted (1-2 days).
* The SE values compared well with the daily exercise of our laboratory where hundreds of such examinations are carried out for 10 years There were no changes in the other blood parameters studied, viz. sodium, potassium, CO2, chloride, glucose, urea nitrogen, cholesterol, total protein, albumin, total bilirubin, alkaline phosphatase and serum glutamic oxaloacetic transaminase (SGOT): they were normal before the ionization treatment and remained so after the treatment. DISCUSSION The technique of Yuwiler et al (1970) used here prevents serotonin loss as well as serotonin release from thrombocytes by blood manipulation. It is also not dependent on fasting or ingestion of serotonin rich food, eg bananas. Its SE is extremely low + 1.8 - 2.* The effect of an increased concentration of positive ions in the air on serotonin release confirms the findings of Krueger, Hicks and Beckett (1963) and Sulman, Levy, Lewy et al. (1974). The opposite effect of negative air ionization on serotonin release and destruction has been shown in man by Danon and Sulman (1969) and in vitro by Tal. Pfeifer and Sulman (1976). It is noteworthy that the patients' complaints of SIS appeared already before serotonin levels were maximally increased. This may be due to normal breakdown of 5-HT to 5-HIAA which was overridden when positive air ionization became excessive. The site of serotonin release is probably mainly the hypothalamus which is the sensor of heat stress effects. Participation of the carotid body has been mooted by Behar et al. (1979). The involvement of the enterochromaffine cells would elicit much higher values than those encountered here. The fact that negative air ionization over 3-6 hours did not influence blood chemical components is noteworthy, however more study should be devoted to this finding using negative ionization for 24 hours, a period which has been shown by us to be free of harmful side effects (Sulman et al., 1978). Russian investigators cited in a NASA report (1966) claimed that negative air ions may cause a decrease in elevated blood cholesterol - a finding not yet closely studied. REFERENCES 1. BEHAR, AJ DEUTCH, E., POMERANTZ, E., PFEIFER, Y and SULMAN, FG (1979): Migraine, serotonin and the carotid body. Lancet i: 550-551. 2. DANON, A. and SULMAN, FG (1969): Ionizing effect of winds of ill repute on serotonin metabolism. Biometeorology 4. (Suppl. to Int. J. Biometeor.) 4 - Part II 135-136. 3. KRUEGER, AP (1972): Are air ions biologically significant? A review of a controversial subject. Int. J. Biometeor., 16: 313-322. 4. KRUEGER, AP., HICKS, WW and BECKETT, JC (1963): Influence of air ions on certain physiological functions. In Medical Biometeorology. SW Tromp (ed.). Elsevier Publ. Comp., Amsterdam, 351-369. 5. NASA (1966): The aero-ionic composition of pressurized cabin air and its influence on the human body. Soviet Congress on Space Biol. & Med. Moscow. 10 Nov. 1966. 6. SOYKA, F. and EDMONDS, A. (1977): The Ion Effect. Dutton & Co. Publ. N.Y., 181pp. SULMAN, FG (1976): Health, Weather and Climate. Karger, Basel, 160pp. 7. SULMAN, FG (1980): The Effect of Air Ionization, Electric Fields, Atmospherics and other Electric Phenomena on Man and Animal. Charles C. Thomas, Springfield, III, 400pp. 8. SULMAN, FG., DANON, A., PFEIFER, Y., TAL., E. and WELLER, CP (1970): Urinalysis of patients suffering from climatic heat stress (Sharav). Int. J. Biometeor., 14: 45-53.
9. SULMAN, FG., LEVY, D., LEWY., PFEIFER, Y., SUPERSTINE, E. and TAL, E. (1974): Air ionmetry of hot, dry desert winds (sharav) and treatment with air ions of weather sensitive subjects. Int. J. Biometeor., 18: 313-318. 10. SULMAN, FG., LEVY, D. and LUNKAN, L (1976): Wetterfuehligkeit und ihre Beziehung zu Sferics, Ionen und Electrofeldern. Z. Physik. Medizin 5: 229-238. 11. SULMAN , FG., LEVY, D., LUNKAN, L., PFEIFER, Y. and TAL, E. (1978): Absence of harmful effects of protraced negative air ionization. Int. J. Biometeor., 22: 53-59. 12. TAL, E., PFEIFER, Y. and SULMAN, FG (1976): Effect of air ionization on blood serotonin in vitro. Experienta (Basel) 32: 326-327. 13. YUWILER, A., PLOTKIN, S., GELLER, E. and RITVO, EG (1970): A rapid accurate procedure for the determination of serotonin in whole human blood. Biochem. Med. (USA) 3: 426-436.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/11/17 9:41  Updated: 2007/11/17 9:41
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 Re: Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
Hello, Republican.

Actually, I have an open but skeptical mind. I've asked to have the science explained, and you're the first to come close. The alkalinity sounds at least more plausible than the "removing toxins" explanation which automatically sets off alarm bells.

I may have to rewrite the article at some point to organize the many assertions laid forth in these comments.

BTW, the abstract that you posted refers to positive air ionization, not negative water ionization. I may remove it and place a link to it.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/5 7:46  Updated: 2007/12/5 18:43
 Re: Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
Very impressive information you have here. I'm interested in anything that helps with health, and would love it if Ionic foot baths DID work (cause I'm lazy, and love the concept that sitting with feet in warm water could be healthy).

But, as I'm lazy, I cannot spend another hour reading all the posts you have here. Is it possible, or do you intend to - do exactly what you state above? You begin with an "experiment", with supposed knowledge on how to validate your "experiment" with further studies.... so why don't you? It would be awesome to have solid concrete evidence based on your suggestions above.
Cause if not, you almost make yourself sound to be like the quackish people making claims with only minor experiments/evidence to show.

Thanks for your work!
-Patrick
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/5 19:02  Updated: 2007/12/5 19:02
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 Re: Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
It is always easier to just buy something than to actually do what it takes to have better health through proper diet and exercise. I'm with you - I'm always looking too, but I'm mostly finding crap.

With regards to experimentation, I should have labeled my "experiment" as a demonstration. A true experiment is done when a scientist doesn't know what the outcome will be.

With regard to an experiment, the one I wanted to do with feet in and out of the water, measuring "toxins" - has already been done.

The newest claims, that hydrogen ions selectively go from the electrodes, through the water, and into the body - where they somehow, uh - do some stuff, and the stuff is beneficial... Well, those claims would be much harder to investigate. I suspect that might be why they've changed the claims.

Basically, you'd have to find a way to measure ionization in the blood. You'd have to have to find a scientifically acceptable way to perform the study under repeatable conditions. To eliminate the placebo effect, you would have to have adequate controls such that the test subject herself doesn't know whether she's part of the experimental group or control group. The clinicians administering the subjects would have to be different than the lab personnel testing the blood. All of them would have to have no financial interest in the results.

And that's the rub: Who's going to pay for the professionals needed for this type of study? So far, the folks making thousands of dollars selling this equipment haven't been anxious to do so, and I'm pretty sure I know why.

As has been mentioned in the threads here, there HAVE been some limited studies, but nothing that you would call clinical or objective.

But, as a person interested in science, I would make this offer: If one of the foot bath manufacturers would put up the money, I would volunteer to help design a valid study and locate trained and credentialed clinicians that could administer it and report their results.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/8/16 12:54  Updated: 2008/8/16 13:26
 Re: Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
Wow you're an moron! Have you ever tried the foot bath yourself?? I have and they work great. You must have no life if this is all you have time to do. What a sad life you must have!!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/6/3 7:21  Updated: 2011/6/3 7:37
 Re: Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
I agree, this pinhead doesn't have a clue, on paper airplanes etc aren't supposed to work either.... he must have wanted one for free so he could APPROVE then for a fee HELP them promote it and they declined seeing that he was a Quack himself, they work for me..... and many others, especially on other continents , this science is new her....... quit being a nay-sayer... Eric in KC
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2011/6/3 8:21  Updated: 2011/6/3 8:21
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 Re: Namecalling doesn't make for good science.
We don't do undisclosed paid blogging. And I'd never write a blog endorsing a product as useless as this. If you had read the article, you would see that my wife paid good money for the worthless treatment that is unsupported by any real science. I wrote this to try to save other people from getting ripped off.

If anyone else wants to call me a pinhead, a moron, or a quack, or make up some more wild, outlandish conspiracies please feel free to take it to the Flame Pit.

If you want to weigh in on the science or marketing of these devices, feel free to post here.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/23 15:35  Updated: 2007/12/23 20:02
 Re: No, thank YOU!
I just tried the footbath and am researching to see opinions. I was impressed with the results as far as one treatment made my feet more flexible than they have been in years - in line with a one hour foot massage from a professional. My neighbor felt generally better for at least a day after her first treatment, and she is very skeptical of the explanations and any alternative approach.

Couldn't the change in color be due somewhat to different soaps, lotions or whatever from one person to the next?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/3/5 0:18  Updated: 2008/3/5 22:40
 Re: No, thank YOU!
i tried one 3 weeks ago. ill try to keep this short. her unit was a $1300 unit. i tried it with a friend who was much older than i. she has fibromyalgia. i had recently had a blood test done at a hospital. the results were that my liver was reporting higher than normally healthy. the dr expressed concern. this lady who owns the ionic foot bath never met us nor did i or my friend tell her anything about us. just paid her the money and stuck our feet in. hers started showing colors before mine. the lady started telling my friend the colors that were coming out represented joints?! next, the colors mine showed she said were representative of the liver?! i had actually forgotten that my liver had come back high till she said that. ?!?! in my Opinion, it works. i dont need to understand 100% how. nor do i care. though i have done much research of it since this thread posting and am glad i did.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/7/27 3:22  Updated: 2008/7/27 9:28
 Re: No, thank YOU!
No need to get nasty.

I too had my feet detoxified (as I was told by the Health Store attendent that did my foot bath that the Orange to Brown crap were the toxins that were released from by body thru my feet.

I Paid $50.00 for this session. I had ask her to set up another Machine and to use as much Salt in it and to run it for 30 Minutes as well with no feet in the tub at the same time that I had my feet in my tub. She claimed that the second machine was out of Commission and required repairing.

After my foot bath I had offered to pay her another $50.00 for her to set up the Tub and Machine once again for me, but that this time I would not place my feet in it. She apologized, stating that she had to close up.

Hmmmmmm.

That evening I went online and purchased an Ion Clease Machine for $200.00. It arrived in 3 days and I proceed to confirm my suspicions.

1) As instructed I placed warm tap water in an Plastic Pail, Connected the Array and placed it in the water and added Sea Salt till the Current registered on the Machine was 2A. (5 or 6 pinches of salt). I waited a minute or so and noticed the bubbling above the array and some coloring to be present. I then placed my feet in the Plastic Tub.

2)for the 1st 10 minutes, the display showed Pos + and the water started to turn Orange.

3)the next 10 Minutes it showed Pos - and the water got darker with some frothing.

4) final 30 minutes it was Pos + and the water turned Orange to light Brown (Rustic)

5) I let the water in the Tub Settle over night, poured the clear water out and placed the (Rustic) colored water in a Sample bottle.

I did the same test the next day. Exactly as outlined above ....except, that I did not place my feet in the tub and low and behold, the Color of the water was pretty near identical, so I let it settle, poured the clear water out and place the remaining colored water (Rustic) in Color in a sample bottle.

Thinking that the (Rustic) colored water may have been caused due to the Tap water, it might be rust, so I did the exact same test but I used Distilled water instead and no feet. I had to add more Sea Salt than be fore to reach and maintain the 2A reading.

End result? Water still (Rustic, same as before.

Hmmmm

So the water made no difference, only other possibilities would be the Sea Salt and/or the Metal wire used in the Array.

So I ran the test again. Using Tap water and now ordinary Table Salt (Iodized)

I had to add a significanttly larger amount of salt to try to get 2A and at the end of the 30 Minute test, the water was the same color (Rustic) but with a slighly less Brown tint than before.

So I could only conclude that the Dark or murky color people are reporting ( I choose to call it Rustic) is cause mainly by the Salt being used.

I will do the same test tomorrow, with no feet in the tub and use Epson Salt and hope to report my findings.

FYI, I am merely reporting my observations to the tests that I am performing. I am not claiming that the Ion Cleaser does nor does not detoxify the body thru the feet.

PLease stay tuned.

Seeking the truth
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/7/27 9:36  Updated: 2008/7/27 9:36
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 Nice Experiment
Very cool that you've taken the time to check this out. I really appreciate when people take the time to experiment.

Here's what I would suggest for your experiment: Figure out what volume your feet would normally take up when in the water. You can do this by taking a marker and marking the water level on the side of the tub. So when you run it without feet, find some inert object to stick in the water in order to raise the water level to that line, so that you're exposing the same amount of the array to the water. Might I suggest a brick in a plastic bag?

Like you said, it doesn't prove or disprove effectiveness, but it explains away color change.

Another thing I've not seen anyone try is soaking the feet in water first, then taking feet out and energizing the water.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/10/15 20:06  Updated: 2007/10/15 20:11
 Re: No, thank YOU!
(duplicate post removed)
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/10/15 12:16  Updated: 2007/10/15 20:00
 does it work- don't know yet
i have to say that i am skeptical of new things until i try them. i started this foot bath with knee pain from a dancing session the night before. when i finished the footbath my knees did not hurt anymore and the pain has not returned. i don't think anyone knows what is does or does not do to the body, but i definately felt better after my first and only treatment. i have had chiropractic sessions that worked and some that didn't. i have tried vitamins and juices that made me feel better and some that didn't. for my part the jury is not in yet.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/10/15 20:54  Updated: 2007/10/15 20:54
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 Re: does it work- don't know yet
It's hard for any person to really know whether something works for them without trying it many times and comparing it to many times not doing it. The reason is that there are so many variables when it comes to human health: we eat differently from day to day, feel differently from day to day, take different medications, do different activities and so on.

For knee pain, one thing that even MDs seem to be able to agree on is that acupuncture works for knee pain. Maybe it would work for you.

For what it's worth, Chiropractic is a mixed bag for me too. I find that I often get some relief, but sometimes find myself feeling worse later.

As far as the foot baths, my educated guess is that the electricity in the water is not doing anything, so it's as unlikely to harm you as it is to help you. Soaking in water may do something. Worst that could happen is that you waste some money...

Good luck. I hope you feel better!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/10/15 22:19  Updated: 2007/11/2 21:00
 Re: does it work- don't know yet
Thanks for your observations. Very revealing. I was told about toxic foot baths by a friend and decided to surf to obtain more information. I must say I'm very skeptical if it works. There is so much quackery these days. Everybody wants to make a buck. What your thoughts on the follow post @ here

I am Steve at ionicoasis.com , here is a research paper we found recently on the internet about ionic foot baths. You can read it for yourself and view before and after bar graphs and pictures at http://www.aquadetox-international.com/research.html

The excerpt below has been taken from the article printed in CAM magazine in September 2005 and has been reproduced with the permission of Dr Sanjay Chaudhuri and CAM magazine.
The purpose of the pilot study was to:
1. Ascertain whether the Aqua Detox has a scientifically measurable and reproducible effect
2. Answer the perennial questions.
2.1 What does the foot spa do?
2.2 How does it work?
2.3 What proof is there?
3. To learn lessons in order to create a fuller trial - e.g to create a dummy machine set-up that would reliably test a control group with the purpose of measuring and correcting for placebo effects.
The charge created by an Aqua Detox medical array is minimal (– 1.7 – 2.1A) less than a fairy light. Therefore the scientific equipment we chose to utilise in our pilot study needed to be sensitive enough to measure the subtle physiological changes which occur immediately after an Aqua Detox.
Methodology
6 test subjects aged between 18 and 70, consisting of 4 females and 2 males, undertook the following measurements before and after the 30 min Aqua Detox session:
1. Heart Rate Variability using the Health Express algorithm adaptability scale
2. Arterial Stiffness Indicator using Cardiotrack proven in clinical trials at a leading London hospital.
3. Blood Pressure and Pulse using an electronic meter which averaged 3 readings
4. Meridian stress testing using the Avatar electro-dermalscreening device employing the Energetix CMD 48 point probe protocol
4. Meridian stress testing using the Avatar electro-dermalscreening device employing the Energetix CMD 48 point probe protocol
5. Live Blood Microscopy phase contrast visual qualitative assessment using the Detox Doctor visual medicine protocol.

A a pH and redox meter were used to ascertain changes in the Aqua Detox treatment water and asked our test subjects to describe how they felt during and after the treatment.
The 3 control subjects were told they were to have an Aqua Detox treatment. The foot bath was prepared with Saline to increase conductivity to 2.1 Amps and the array was surreptitiously disconnected from the power unit for the same duration as the test subjects. No comments were made during the subsequent testing phase. The purpose of the control group was to assess the reproducibility and validity of our test protocol, particularly the electro-dermal testing.
In order to standardise the study, we limited participants’ water intake to just 1 glass during the Aqua Detox treatment and ensured that no food, tea or coffee was consumed 2 hours before testing.
Aqua Detox are now looking to conduct a clinical trial to enable Aqua Detox to prove that the Aqua Detox machine has a detoxifying effect and gain a product licence. Aqua Detox International Ltd contacted the MHRA in November 2005 to receive the medical definition of “Detox” so they could design a study to prove its detoxifying effects. As soon as we have the medical definition of the word Detox, Aqua Detox International will begin clinical trials.
Below is a letter sent into Aqua Detox from a Ben L. Pfeifer, M.D.,Ph.D.
Dear Mr. Bevan
I want to apologize that I have been so out of touch. I was working in Asia during June and half of July and was overwhelmed with e-mail requests (50 on average daily) so that all my correspondence is late.
We have received your machines safely and also put them to work with some of our chemotherapy patients.
Our first impression is that the patients experience less chemotherapy side effects, in particular nausea and vomiting. Of course, it is difficult to determine whether they also have a positive effect on the haematopoetic and the immune system side effects of chemotherapy, which would really be great. To answer this question we would have to run a formal study, involving possibly some university oncologist (to make it undisputable if succesful) and have more patients enrolled. Our hospital does however not have the funds to launch such a study. If you are interested in a study of this type, please let us know whether there is any funding from your side - then at least, I would try to get a matching funding from the Aeskulap Foundation.
I hope this brief up-date is helpful to you.
Sincerely yours,
Ben L. Pfeifer, M.D.,Ph.D.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/10/15 22:51  Updated: 2007/10/15 22:51
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 The study...
The same guy tried to post this here earlier. I read the research at the time and concluded that the study was not constructed with adequate controls. When I look at the link he provides, I see that the site is gone.

Basically, there is a bunch of quasi-scientific talk here, but no explanation of the results. I hope someone can find a peer-reviewed controlled, double-blind scientific study. I'll reprint it (if allowed) and provide a link to it.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/10/24 15:38  Updated: 2007/10/25 12:16
 Re: The study...
I don't understand the aforementioned experiment. Were I to leave my Ionic Foot Bath with water on for half an hour the water would remain clear. If I added a metal nail and some copper... sure, that may discolor the water. However, when my feet are added instead of say, a nail, the water becomes dirty. This seems to be a far more accurate and, indeed, undeniable experiment whereas the previous one seems contrived. Is it possible to explain this to me without me going back to college?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/10/25 12:23  Updated: 2007/10/25 12:23
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 Re: The study...
Sure. Let me try:

The copper and the nail were not just "added" to the water. They were electrodes (cathode and anode) which actually delivered the current to the water. The point here was to show simply that color change and black specs can happen, and that they are not necessarily related to something coming out of your body.

In the water, there is only electricity going between the electrodes. Since neither electrode is attached to your feet, there is no current flow in any possible way from your body to the water or vice versa. Therefore, there is no way that the electricity is affecting chemical flow from your body. The water's chemistry is only changing because of two possible things: electrolysis at the electrodes, and the excretion of sweat and sebum from your feet.

If you were to run an ion bath with nothing but pure water (no salt) then theoretically no current would flow between the electrodes and no chemistry change would take place. Adding a little salt makes the water conductive and the sodium and chlorine atoms split forming sodium and chloride ions that can combine with the electrode metals to form salts.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/10/30 3:09  Updated: 2007/10/30 19:29
 Re: The study...
Need some help...I'm experimenting with one of this ionic foot baths; I have run the foot bath without my feet in it for 30 minutes without a color change to the water. Next I was very careful and meticulous in washing my feet, exfoliating, making sure to use an organic mild soap solution, rinsing very well, removing any kind of residue; after this I then put my feet in the ionic spa and noticed the water started changing after about 15 minutes; this experiment was repeated exactly the same way using 7 subjects...the results were basically the same except that the water color changed earlier on some and later on others (time to color varied, it did not increase or decrease in time from subject to subject). Water color also varied from subject to subject. I should further add the same amount of salt and water was used for each subject.

In addition, the array that is placed in the ion spa is brand new...because I've discovered older arrays or models with lower end building materials used (i.e. alloys) have a tendency to discolor the water. Another reason why you are suppose to replace your arrays often because the alloys will break down due to the current generated.

What would you conclude from this experiment? Another question...do you believe in medical chi gong?

Western science has been trying to understand Acupuncture, but still can only speculate or deny...fortunately it doesn't matter what they say because it works very well and that is exactly why the AMA has continued to attack it along with Chiropractic.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/10/30 19:44  Updated: 2007/10/30 19:44
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 Re: The study...
Did you put salt in the water when your feet weren't in there? Without an electrolyte, establishing a current would be difficult.

That said, all tap water has some conductivity. When I used to do hydroponics, I had to measure dissolved solids, and the tap water here in Lewisville, TX came in at about 400 ppm. Rain water was down around 30 ppm, and distilled water should theoretically be 0 ppm - or very close.

In order to know what was going on with your machine, one would have to know voltage, electrode composition, and what was in the water.

What I would suspect is that the feet sweat a little in the water - perhaps pushing the electrolytes up enough to begin the reaction. Another possibility is that having feet in the water raised the water level up to where it made more contact with the electrodes. That's also very important to control - the exact water level. You could maybe wrap some bricks in plastic bags and put them in the water to take up the same space as feet.

Even so, I'd expect you'd get some color difference with feet that you wouldn't get without. Something I'd be interested to see you try is have the folks soak their feet without the electrodes turned on, then have them take their feet out and turn on the baths.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/11/9 5:16  Updated: 2007/11/9 8:30
 Re: The study...
Which would of course, pretty much solve the mystery. If it is in fact something on the feet which gets into the water, it wouldn't matter if the actual feet were in the water when it was turned on, as long as they had been. If the color change of the water still occurs, the benefits of ionization would be.. well.. bunk.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/11/16 20:24  Updated: 2007/11/17 10:06
 Re: The study...
here is another one I found with a 1 minute google search!

Also, make sure you know the real definitions of the scientific terms for positive and negative ions.

Philipp E.A. vonLenard, Nobel Prize winning physicist, lecturer and author of “The Electricity of Waterfalls” (1915) found that when water is atomized (e.g. on impact of a water droplet), negative and positive charges are separated.

Molecules which are torn from the surface of the water bear a negative charge (small negative ions) whereas large drops or the entire mass of water are positive.

This provided an unexpected explanation for the refreshing, invigorating effect of residences close to a waterfall or spring, or even after rain.

Some of these reactions which improve well-being and physical and mental capacity have since become known.

• Negative ions accelerate the oxidative degradation of serotonin whereas positive ions have the opposite action and inactivate the enzymes which break down serotonin.

• An increase in the serotonin level (5-hydroxytryptamine) produces

• tachycardia,

• a rise in blood pressure,

• bronchospasm going as far as asthma attack,

• increased intestinal peristalsis (contractions and dilations of the intestines to move the contents onwards),

• increased sensitivity to pain,

• increased aggression.

• A decrease in the serotonin level is calming and increases defenses against infection (as proven with influenza 'the flu').

• Negative ions produce an increase in hemoglobin/oxygen affinity so that the partial oxygen pressure in the blood rises but the partial carbon dioxide pressure decreases. This results in reduced respiratory rate and enhances the metabolism of water-soluble vitamins.

In addition, negative ions produce an increase in PH and, in particular, an increase in the secretory performance of the mucosa with an increase in ciliary movement in the airways.

According to the studies of Fleischer and Pantlitschko, negative ions probably also improve blood flow by increasing the release of proteolytic enzymes with fibrinolytic activity. Wordens studied the adrenals of golden hamsters kept under the same experimental conditions. The adrenals of animals treated with positive ions weighed 33% less than the adrenals of animals treated with normal respiratory air.

On the other hand, the weight of the adrenals from golden hamsters treated with negative ions was 29% higher. Olivereau found a 30% enlargement of adrenals in rats after 20 days of treatment with negative ions. This finding suggests that the ability of the adrenals to produce glucocorticoids is reduced by positive ions and increased by negative ions.

Considerable increase in vital capacity was observed by M.A. Vytchikova and A. Minkh in 1959, with the maintenance of blood sugar and blood oxygen levels. Thus, in a group of 9 sports students, Minkh found that ergometer endurance was increased by 260% in 32 days compared with a normal control group following the inhalation for 15 minutes daily of air enriched with 1.5 million negative small ions per centimeter.

Even before the 1976 Olympics, air ionization in the sleeping quarters of team members was used to improve performance in sports centers in the USSR and the GDR [M. Jokl, Prague]. Studies by Altmann in 1975 clearly show that the performance of school children can, for example, be considerably increased by changing the electrical conditions of the rooms. Comparable effects have also been achieved by the use of ionized air.

According to the latest information in the fields of medicine, biology and meteorology, it can be definitively established that atmospheric ions have a biological effect. Atmospheric electrical factors are a component of our environment and we humans are clearly affected by electro-ionic microclimates to a far greater extent than previously imagined.

This finding acquires particular significance since, as a result of artificial air conditioning (e.g. atmospheric pollution, buildings, air-conditioning units, heating, electrical installations, plastics), civilized man spends 50-100% of his time in an unnaturally charged electroclimate. In cities, in closed rooms and in cars, etc., the proportion of small negative ions in the atmosphere is markedly reduced compared with undisturbed nature.

An atmosphere with an excess of negative ions, such as frequently arise under open sky, usually induces a complete vegetative turn-around within twenty days. In the curative phase of this total turn-around, the vegetative nervous system is normally restored and the course of infectious diseases is essentially attenuated (weakened) and (healing is) accelerated.

Excerpts from several fascinating medical study bears out these findings:

Effect of Air Ionization of Blood Serotonin in Vitro.

Tal E , Pfeifer Y , Sulman FG .

The effect of negative and positive air ionization on siliconized blood serotonin was studied in vitro. The experiments showed that within 10 min positive ionization increased serotonin levels in total blood (+40%), plasma (+90%), erythrocytes (+50%) and thrombocytes (+240%). On the other hand, negative ionization (10 min) lowered the serotonin content of total blood (-30%), plasma (-42.5%), erythrocytes (-41.7%) and thrombocytes (-72.3%), thus confirming the 'Krueger Effect' in vitro.

PMID: 1253899 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The Journal of General Physiology, Vol 42, 69-

82, 1958

Experientia. 1976 Mar 15;32(3):326-7.





THE EFFECTS OF AIR IONS ON THE LIVING MAMMALIAN TRACHEA

Albert P. Krueger 1 and Richard F. Smith 1

1 From the Department of Bacteriology, University of California, Berkeley

Studies on the effects of air ions on the functional efficiency of the extirpated tracheal strip have been extended to the trachea of the living rabbit, rat, and mouse. Animals exposed to high mobility (+) air ions administered via a tracheotomy aperture displayed: ( a ) Decreased ciliary activity. ( b ) Decline in mucus flow rate, sometimes reversed by prolonged exposure to (+) ions; a frequent drop in the volume of mucous secretion. ( c ) Contraction of the membranous posterior tracheal wall. ( d ) Increased vulnerability to trauma of cilia and mucosal blood vessels.

Similar treatment with (-) air ions reversed (+) ion effects on ciliary activity, mucus flow, contraction of the tracheal smooth muscle. Continued (-) ion treatment raised the ciliary rate (invariably) and the mucus flow rate (often) above their initial levels.

(+) Air ions administered to unoperated resting mice and rats increased the respiratory rate; (-) ions reversed this effect.

Long exposure of unoperated ambulatory mice to (+) air ions produced: ( a ) Decreased ciliary activity. ( b ) No clear cut effect on mucus flow. ( c ) Contraction of the posterior tracheal wall. ( d ) Increased vulnerability of the mucosa to trauma. (-) Air ions increased ciliary activity but had no clear-cut effect on the mucus flow rate.

Wow, I just modified my search a bit right now- and the studies on tons of different ion absorbsion in humans. not gonna post all this, just sad you are not well versed. Hmmm... I bet you are probably not googling the proper info.// of course I am assuming you are looking up information before you post.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/11/17 10:21  Updated: 2007/11/17 10:21
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 Re: The study...
So you've basically just said that negative ions break down serotonin - that would be a bad effect, and a possible reason NOT to have negative ions going into your body.

Congratulations on finding some things on Google to support your positions. As you know, everything on the Internet is true, and is always taken in context.

For the record, I am not a doctor, a chemist, or a biologist. But I also didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. It's right for consumers to be skeptical of patent medicines and snake oil in these days of sparsely regulated markets. All I'm asking for is that people making profits from selling cures be able to prove that the devices are effective. None of the studies thus far has shown that. What we've had are theories of operation - and only in the last few days has anyone posted anything other than the typical "removing toxins" shtick.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/11/17 21:39  Updated: 2007/11/18 9:33
 Re: The study...
raising and lowering serotonin is not basically bad and good. Read on multiple diseases, conditions where changing this level facilitates many curing functions in the body(not going to digress into this known topic.

I appreciate you hosting a blog and discussing issues, just know that I know of personal friends whose child with autism found huge benefits, etc.
I know, I know, double blind......

yes lots of hippy chicks "practicing" medicine and selling homeopathic devices, etc. without even knowing what they are saying(broad medical claims of toxins in the water). This is the scary stuff, not the actual item and the real "possible" science.

These detox baths are selling well without returns so much so, that the Chinese are copycating the original ones, and selling them worldwide. Actually, ionization is widely regarded in Japan as an acceptable medical treatment.

Not wanting a online dragged out back and forth, I just have some experience (through a few friends, and some of my own) that the marketing is scam, the unit seems to have some real validity.

thanks again.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/5 19:07  Updated: 2007/12/5 19:07
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 People will fall for anything...
Here is a rather unusual scam: Convincing folks they can be diagnosed by satellite, and have a cure administered by secret government agents

Truly, we have an education problem in this country. I wish folks would get their knickers out of a twist about evolution vs. creation, and insist that science education be scientific and more consumer-related.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/10 19:13  Updated: 2007/12/10 23:30
 Re: People will fall for anything...
So, Playin', just curious, are you a deist?
The only credence you seem to give in all of your rebuttals is to traditional allopathic medicine. Clearly, that side of the medicinal world has made many great strides in cardiology, neurology, osteopathy, etc..., however, it continues to fail miserably in treating every day ailments and critical illnesses like cancer, but irrespective of it's failures, it's arrogance is never ending. I would not be suprised if you were employed somewhere in the allopathic side of the medical field (pharmaceutical sales, maybe?) I will take the real life testimonies over your "Double Blind" BS anyday. You are probably a Darwin evolutionist too, regardless of the reams of irrefutable data proving Darwinian evolution to be a farce...Read "Electronic Medicine", by Alan Stang, it will open your eyes, if they are not permanently sealed shut by the inebriation of your allegiance to the AMA.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/10 23:46  Updated: 2007/12/10 23:46
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 Re: People will fall for anything...
Wow.Just.Wow.

Lordy, you make a lot of statements here, let me address them:

1. I am not in any way invested in traditional medicine. I'm not a doctor, don't own stock in drug companies or insurers or work for them. If you'd read my post about Universal Healthcare, you'd quickly realize that.

2. I'm equally skeptical with medical doctors. If you were to ask my doctor about that, she would give you an earful. My point is that folks need to take the time to understand treatments. There is some good in each of the major fields, but there is also bunk. It's easier for "alternative" medicine to hide bunk.

3. Testimonies vs. Double-blind Placebo-Controlled Clinical Studies: Ignorance is bliss. You could make up just about any kind of "treatment" and give it to a group of people. Some number of those people will say it made them feel better. This is called the Placebo Effect. It's real, and you control for it with clinical studies. You simply have to use this type of study for any type of treatment where the outcome is subjective like "I feel better" or "It hurts less". If you're trying to shrink tumors or reduce osteoporosis you have something you can at least measure.

4. Darwinian evolution? I don't see how that's germane to the question here. I believe in God, and I believe in science. Evolution exists and so does creation. I don't see any conflict in that, but it's a topic for another day.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/11 9:59  Updated: 2007/12/11 10:23
 Re: People will fall for anything...
Okay, here is why I asked about your religion--You don't seem to believe in anything...lol. Here is some concrete data for you: My son was diagnosed with severe Dyslexia as well as disgraphia. Knowing that "Modern" medicine has no treatment or cure whatsoever, I did a great deal of research and found that cell toxicity (metals, etc...)might be one of the problems. We did fecal and urine tests, and found that beryllium was one of the main metals he was passing in his feces. I then took him to an incredible homeopathic detox center in Nashville called "Internal Balance", which is run by a biochemist named Tamara Mariea, who had toxicity issues herself (see her website at http://www.internalbalance.com/. She is well known for her work with Autism, Meningitis, and related diseases. She has done extensive testing on the foot baths, testing the distilled water before to make sure there are no metals, and after the bath. There have been many positive test results for metals in the water post process. I was a skeptic as well, probably way worse than you, but if you could see the results I have seen in my son after their detox program, which includes other electronic/magnetically driven therapy, you would believe as well. Please read the book I sent you, I do think you will find it eye opening.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/11 12:22  Updated: 2007/12/11 12:22
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 Re: People will fall for anything...
Okay, here is why I asked about your religion--You don't seem to believe in anything...lol.

I'm a generation X'er. I'm naturally cynical due to the excessive amount of bullsh** that the baby boomers have perpetrated on us. ;)

Here is some concrete data for you:

Not to split hairs, but I think this is an important point: What you have here is not data, but a "datum" (singular). You've got anecdotal evidence based on your one case. This is quite different from empirical data. Within the population of cases like yours, there is some percentage - say X% of kids that would get better with placebo treatment. Your child may have been among those percentage. Without data to compare those who've been treated to those who have not, you'll have no way of knowing.

My son was diagnosed with severe Dyslexia as well as disgraphia. Knowing that "Modern" medicine has no treatment or cure whatsoever, I did a great deal of research and found that cell toxicity (metals, etc...)might be one of the problems. We did fecal and urine tests, and found that beryllium was one of the main metals he was passing in his feces.


I feel your pain on this. My oldest son has moderate dyslexia and disgraphia too.

Beryllium? Do you know how he came to have that in his body? I don't blame you for seeking to detoxify him.

I then took him to an incredible homeopathic detox center in Nashville called "Internal Balance", which is run by a biochemist named Tamara Mariea, who had toxicity issues herself (see her website at http://www.internalbalance.com/. She is well known for her work with Autism, Meningitis, and related diseases. She has done extensive testing on the foot baths, testing the distilled water before to make sure there are no metals, and after the bath. There have been many positive test results for metals in the water post process.


I looked at the website briefly, but couldn't find any sort of clinical studies or scientific explanations. Let me clarify that although "detoxification" in general is a term that invites skepticism, I don't doubt that there may be some medical or alternative medical processes that work for it. She may have things that work.

Let me note that one of the experiments I've referenced in the article I posted actually did test the bath water and found no significant traces of heavy metals. Another thing the study examined was whether the amounts of metals found compared significantly to the amounts of these metals that people normally intake through their environment. Without knowing how much Beryllium is in your son's system, and his normal rate of ingestion / elimination, any numbers you see from lab tests are going to be meaningless. If a treatment that costs $200 is only eliminating 1000th of what he might absorb and eliminate in a day, I'd say you'd be throwing your money away.

I was a skeptic as well, probably way worse than you, but if you could see the results I have seen in my son after their detox program, which includes other electronic/magnetically driven therapy, you would believe as well.


I believe you when you say that your son is doing better. A parent knows. My major question is whether he would have done just as well with a placebo treatment or no treatment at all at much less expense. A clinical study done right could shed some light on this.

Please read the book I sent you, I do think you will find it eye opening.


I'll look forward to receiving it. Email the webmaster at whosplayin.com and I'll send you the mailing address.

I'd be interested to have a conversation with Tamara Jo Mariea and see if she can provide more insight on the scientific and medical aspects of this. Feel free to send her this way!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/15 19:04  Updated: 2007/12/16 13:03
 Re: People will fall for anything...
Please feel free to call Internal Balance, their number is on their website. Maybe they can help your son as well. As for the alleged "incredible results of placebos" you allude to as being the cause of my son's improved vision, reading, etc... it is now time for my skepticism. You are so hung up on the "scientific method" that you won't accept results of non traditional medicine even when they are staring you in the face. I have never heard of dyslexics being miraculously cured by a placebo, and I challenge you to provide me any anecdotal evidence to support that statement. Remember, the "scientific method" is also what Darwin used to come up with his famous theory, which has more holes in it than the Dolpins' defense.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/16 13:16  Updated: 2007/12/16 13:16
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 Re: People will fall for anything...
Consistent with the scientific method, I did not conclude that your son was a placebo case. I suggested that possibility and the need for more evidence. Failing to attribute something to the support of a theory is not a rejection of the theory per se.

The scientific method is a framework for finding things out. Its purpose is to sort out the truth. As a filter, it will catch garbage, but it doesn't invalidate the method. Theories stand for years before better evidence is found. Then the theory is amended or tossed.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/11/9 14:44  Updated: 2011/11/9 21:59
 Re: People will fall for anything...
"People will fall for anything..." including yourself!

OK, I see you're a Fundamentalist so that explains a lot.....you take what a bunch of scientifically ignorant guys wrote down thousands of years ago as irrefutable proof .....no wonder you have some equally unprovable beliefs about how much of the world operates. You just believe what you want to be true.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/15 12:39  Updated: 2007/12/15 14:40
 A Believer
Two things...I had a client that has smoked cigars for eight years and it was his WATER that smelled - acually, being from Kentucky and working in tobacco, his water smelled like a tobacco barn. When I walked away from him to dispose of the water, the overwhelming smell was still present in the water, along with a nasty radiator-tar type sludge that I have NEVER seen in over 60 + treatments. Also, before I became involved in this treatment, I tried a test myself. The machine will not even come on without contact with a human body part. I actually tested on one finger for the entire 30 minute treatment. We ALL know because of the chemical-toxic laden air we breath, as well as the same disgusting tap water, that the two will automatically create the reaction which will cause a 'tea' color in the water.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/15 14:46  Updated: 2007/12/15 14:46
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 Re: A Believer
Is it possible the water would have smelled even if the machine were not hooked up? I don't doubt that a heavy smoker could secrete smelly compounds.

Perhaps your machine has similar circuitry to a touch-sensitive lamp switch, which only turns on when touched.

Toxic Air? I'm with you on that. Automobiles and Coal-fired power plants are responsible for quite a bit of it. Personally, I'd like to work on ways to keep that crap out of our air and water, rather than doing all sorts of unnatural things to try to get it out of my body.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/19 18:56  Updated: 2007/12/20 14:16
 Toxins are positivly charged
Toxins have a positive charge but you want a anodic or cathodic charge only for iontophoresis, one or the other, depending on the results you want. The other end of the electrode should connect to the body and that anode or cathode is in the water and the positivly charged toxins would want to migrate towards the water out of the body. Correct?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/20 14:33  Updated: 2007/12/20 14:35
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 Re: Toxins are positivly charged
Maybe.

First, on "toxins". I think most of the marketing on toxin removal is hype. God gave each of us a liver and kidneys to do that. Probably 99.99% of us have no problem with that, or we can detox on our own by clean diet and breathing clean air for awhile. Some folks do have heavy metals or other substances in the bloodstream. I think that folks who suspect that should see a doctor and get a blood test to confirm it before spending a lot of time and money "detoxifying".

On connecting an electrode to the body: That at least sounds plausible to me. In fact, the first time I heard of this treatment, I asked about where the electrode was connected. I suspected it was bunk the minute I heard that both electrodes were in the water, and no feet were between them. Since electricity travels the path of least resistance, anything that is not between the electrodes or touching them should not be affected.

I would suspect that hooking an electrode to the body would have immensely more physiological effect. However, it would also carry quite a bit of danger and liability, and could trigger registration of the devices as a medical device. I think the manufacturers would prefer to stay under the FDA's radar and continue to make huge profits with no accountability for efficacy.

I won't say that the FDA's methods are perfect, but the clinical study process at least attempts a modicum of scientific validity.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/22 14:13  Updated: 2007/12/23 13:52
 My Advice--don't do it
I had one of these ionic foot baths the other day because a friend of mine who's a natural health practitioner has recently started doing it. The results were AWFUL. I have felt sick as a dog ever since. All kinds of symptoms, including brain fog, no energy, bones aching, sensitivity to cold, loss of appetite, and uncontrollable hacking cough. I am so disgusted with myself for not researching FIRST. If anyone offers you this treatment, run for the door as fast as you can. It's awful.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/24 13:35  Updated: 2007/12/24 13:35
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 Re: My Advice--don't do it
In the interest of consistency and fairness, I should comment on this too.

First, I don't doubt for a second that you have felt sick. The symptoms you describe are no fun.

However, I'd be really surprised if they came from the ionic foot bath - unless maybe the thing hadn't been properly sterilized and you caught someone else's bug.

The reason I say this is that based on my understanding of the devices and the way that electric current flows, they shouldn't have any effect physiologically - either positive or negative. (At least no more than a non-ionic foot bath would)

Nevertheless, I agree with you: Run for the door. Otherwise you'll part with some hard-earned money, and the practitioner is likely to be selling other non-tested or possibly harmful treatments.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/27 13:13  Updated: 2007/12/27 19:08
 Re: My Advice--don't do it
Any "detox" program comes with a risk of a Herxheimer reaction. This is somewhat common, and it means that the body is detoxing too fast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisch-Herxheimer_reaction

Drink plenty of fluids, and wait several days before trying it again. If the machine has adjustable settings, then try one of the lower power settings.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/27 19:24  Updated: 2007/12/27 19:24
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 Re: Herx
Both the Wikipedia entry and the medical literature I find discuss Herxheimer as a result of microbes being killed by antibiotics or similar treatment.

Here's another link:
http://www.joimr.org/phorum/read.php?f=2&i=51&t=51

If you just Google Herxhimer reaction many of the listings are sites at Geocities and Angelfire associated with people selling non-medical treatments of various sorts.

I could see where folks could get the idea that a "detox" was causing a Herx reaction though. I know that in my wife's massage practice, she tells clients to make sure they drink plenty of water after a massage. My limited understanding is that the physical manipulation of the tissues moves a lot of lymph faster than the body can deal with it.

If a foot bath were somehow either releasing toxins, killing bacteria, or perhaps killing healthy cells, I could see how a Herx-like effect could follow.

I'd be interested to know if the original poster had anything else going on before getting their foot bath. Were they on antibiotics, or had they perhaps gotten a massage?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/7/31 1:18  Updated: 2008/7/31 6:42
 Re: Herx
Actually, Herxheimer reactions are a reality. I experienced one after a course of Doxycyclin following removal of a seriously abscessed tooth. The kill-off of a large amount of bacteria embedded in the oral tissues caused severe lupus-like symptoms (frozen joints, myalgia, mouth sores) that the doctor had to control with steroid treatment.

As for the ionic footbath, I was offered one by my massage therapist, and had a huge laugh when, having asked about the science behind it, she went off on a fuzzy rant that sounded like white magic. Seeing her "Chakra Kit" sitting on her desk did nothing to suspend my disbelief. After agreeing to test it(heck, it sounded ineffective enough, for good or bad, she could use the few extra bucks she charges for it, and I have a sinus headache...) I went through with the "detox therapy" and watched in amusement while the water turned orange(rust!)-colored thinking smugly "metallic salts"... She went on to state that the colored water indicated that I had detoxed from my joints. Enough B.S.for me...

So off I go home laughing with my sister about the quackish practice, and vowing to warn everyone in sight not to fall for the silly scam.

However, comma, as soon as I get home, my sinuses start draining so rapidly and completely that I start gagging. Withing 20 minutes, the headache, and the tooth pain caused by the sinus pressure, are completely gone, where decongestants and analgesics could not do the job for the last two weeks. Additionally, the pain in my bunion that has bugged me for the last three months is GONE. Placebo effect? I don't rule it out. Will I try it again? You bet.

Maybe instead of bickering about placebo and "science" we should stop thinking of people and diseases as separate entities. "Detoxing" carries such religious connotation (Toxins=sin, Sickness=Punishment) that people who do not subscribe to the "purification" concept find the idea useless and distasteful. As a few people have pointed out in this blog, we have a body designed to continually process "toxins". Except, maybe, for petrochemicals and other wondrous molecules we have not evolved fast enough to live side-by-side with. I prefer to reason in terms of "Tune-up". As an engineer, I am trained for rigorous thinking, but I cultivate a high tolerance for duality and paradox, and a love for simple observation. Observation paired with measuring can be both enlightening/educational and reductionist. Homeopathy has long been derided as senseless pseudo-science, even though the concept of "hormesis", i.e., the concept of low-dose stimulation, high-dose inhibition associated with noxious substances is well-known to science.

The idea that we can reduce our understanding of the human body to the sum of observable symptoms is simply antiquated and knowledge-limiting. In the juxtaposition of Aristotelian thought (allopathic medicine, systematic observation) and Platonic one (naturopathic medicine, always looking for Ultimate Cause, simplyfying) lies the balance...

Yours Truly
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/9/4 9:42  Updated: 2010/9/4 9:46
 Re: My Advice--don't do it
Has it occurred to you that you were detoxing? Did you drink alot of water after treatment and rest? Some people experience these effects and if they were to continue with several treatments feel wonderful..so dont be so quick to run out the door because the door might hit you in the a.. and the a.. you might be saving will be your own...something to think about
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/9/4 11:48  Updated: 2010/9/4 14:39
 Re: My Advice--don't do it
You do realize you are answering a post from July 2008, don't you?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/8/10 0:47  Updated: 2011/8/10 8:49
 Re: My Advice--don't do it
YOU PROBABLY USED A HIGH AMPAGE
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/23 23:46  Updated: 2007/12/24 13:21
 Question
I am curious. Why is the post-treatment color of water different for different people? Sorry if you answered this is one of your posts. I read your entire article and some of the comments, but it would take me all day to read ALL of them. Anyway, if the whole treatment is a scam, then why would different people, with different ailments and levels of "toxicity," end up with different colored water?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2007/12/24 13:29  Updated: 2007/12/24 13:29
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 Re: Question
The colors of the water may or may not be affected by a person's ailment or "toxicity". Some of the original claims said basically that the color represented "toxins" coming out of your body. That's bunk.

The color changes occur naturally whether or not feet are in the water. They are due to the creation of metallic salts and other compounds created from the salt, water impurities, and the electrodes of the device, which erode over time.

When feet are put in the water, you're going to get perspiration, body oils, and whatever might normally come off of your feet anytime you soak them in water. These will add more impurities to the "soup" and can add to the color.

The "scam" of it all is that there is no real science behind the treatments. Though various hypotheses have been offered as to how it might work, they've never been clinically tested in a scientifically valid study. These devices are not licensed by the FDA as medical devices, so manufacturers are not allowed to make health claims. Thus, they typically sell through grey-market channels, such as multi-level marketing or wholesale to unsophisticated sellers, who they know will repeat anecdotal stories and make claims that the FDA would otherwise not allow.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2007/12/30 19:09  Updated: 2007/12/31 9:58
 Patient
The change in my wifes problems has been enormous. We did repeated treatments over 7 mos. and the results were quite different from your little nail experiment. But skeptics love their life and we love the amazing healthy results she is now enjoying. May God Bless You. Don't forget there are things that should be experienced to know more than we currently know. Good Luck we are enjoying the health. Dave Brown
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/7/16 13:45  Updated: 2008/7/16 14:08
 Re: Patient
I have suffered migranes since I was twelve years old. Theys tarted after an automobile accident in 1978. They had become so bad that my husband would rush me to the emergency room because I had stroke like symptoms with the headaches. In September 2006 I tried the ion foot bath and and felt better, so I bought one and continued treatments. I haven't had a single migrane since! Praise the Lord! My entire family has reaped the benefits.

The double blind studies deserve as much skepticism... how many medications are taken off the market after the AMA said they were safe in the beginning?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/7/16 14:13  Updated: 2008/7/16 14:13
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 Double-blind studies and the AMA
Glad you are feeling better. I think your faith has healed you.

Double-blind (and other clinical or scientific studies) are ALWAYS looked at skeptically if they're done right. Skepticism is a cornerstone of science.

Also, I don't believe the AMA has anything to do with the approval of drugs. The FDA approves drugs after review of studies administered by the drug companies. In recent years, there have been quite a few instances of conflict of interest with the FDA's reviewers having interest in the drug companies. Further, we've had drug companies that submitted only the studies that showed favorable results - burying those studies that showed negative results.

Goes to show that just because something is done scientifically, doesn't mean it's always done ethically.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/1/14 1:13  Updated: 2009/1/14 8:41
 Re: Patient
You are SO right, Dave! I am an alternative health practitioner who does both ear conings and ionic footbaths with GREAT results for both myself and clients. I know many feel that ear coning "is a hoax"...they are defintely wrong. It's worked for me for the past 15 years, and the ionic footbath has taken care of my fibroids naturally, given me incredible energy and mental clarity. I think some things cannot be "scientifically explained", but they work anyway. Thanks for your comments Dave!

Sally
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/6 13:33  Updated: 2008/1/6 15:19
 Energy work/ footbaths
There were those who believed the world was flat at one time as well. Thank God for those who take information that supports new ideas. If not for those who keep moving forward, we would still be afraid of the edge! Energy medicine - including the footbaths is fast growing and will become the norm in the future. Skeptics have their place, but it is annoying to repeatedly have to stand up for treatments that just plain work just because we cant "scientifically" prove it. Perhaps these skeptics should be using their skills to prove - not debunk what is proven to work?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/1/6 15:33  Updated: 2008/1/6 15:33
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 Re: Energy work/ footbaths
Points taken - and really this is the point of science - to probe new ideas. Remember it was Galileo who hypothesized the Earth was round - not the Church.

I think for the purposes of this discussion, it's best to separate "Energy Work" from the "Ionic Foot Bath" because they are totally separate things.

"Energy Work" is any type of treatment that tends to focus more on the spiritual or non-physical aspect of a person - for instance Reiki. Its practitioners rarely invoke science of any kind to explain it, saying that either the Universe, God, spirits or whatever other non-physical entities are affecting a change. This type of work simply requires faith, and because it's not a physical thing would be very hard to test.

Sellers of "Ionic Foot Baths" on the other hand, attempt to imply that something electro-chemical is occurring that is having physiological effects in the body. They speak of "negative hydrogen ions" and toxins and magnetism and all sorts of other pseudo-scientific terms.

Regarding the role of science with regard to the footbaths, I'd say that science ALWAYS comes from a skeptical point of view, taking nothing on faith - especially anecdotal evidence that something works. Almost any treatment you can think of that would be inert by nature would be perceived to work due to the placebo effect, and self-selection by subjects for whom the most perceived benefit takes place.

I wish I had the means and the training to conduct a proper scientific and clinical trial of these devices. Since I can't, I think what we'll have to wait for is the manufacturers of these devices to put up some of their profits and apply for FDA Approval.

Skepticism pays here, especially when you consider how much these treatments typically cost. If there were a quack treatment being advertised that required patients to put a teaspoon full of sugar under the tongue in order to "remove toxins", I might think it was bunk, but what would it really cost? A couple of cents? At that price, even a placebo is worth it.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/6 21:48  Updated: 2008/1/6 23:06
 question
I have studied plenty of chemistry and so completely understand why you can get color with applied current, however, why would the color decrease with continued use of an ionic footbath? Wouldn't you expect the water to be consistantly colored over time?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/1/6 23:13  Updated: 2008/1/6 23:13
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 Re: question
It's a good question. You may be the first person I've heard to mention the effect.

If it happens, it could be for several reasons:
- The "toxins" have all come out and aren't there to color the water any more.
- More likely, the electrodes have eroded and are thus less conductive with the water - performing less electrolysis which leads to the colored salts
- The practitioner could be intentionally skewing the results by setting a lower power setting or adding less salt to the water.

If it's an observed effect, it ought to be able to be studied quantitatively.
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jakerobinson
Posted: 2008/3/25 0:50  Updated: 2008/3/25 0:50
Joined: 2008/3/24
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 Re: question
whosplayin said:

It's a good question. You may be the first person "I've heard to mention the effect.


- More likely, the electrodes have eroded and are thus less conductive with the water - performing less electrolysis which leads to the colored salts
- The practitioner could be intentionally skewing the results by setting a lower power setting or adding less salt to the water."



Your last comments seems to have a conspiracy theorist slant to it..

Think about it... if all the folks that are using it (on their clients) in ignorance of science - how could they all be in on the intentional 'scam' of controlling the exact amounts of salts etc to 'create' a progressively clearing baths? Sounds dubious... how can a bunch of 'quacks' all be that regimented to pull this 'scam' off, so I don't think your last theory holds toxins

I also think that the eroding electrodes is also slim... I am about to start a health treatment program that does include Ionic foot baths... Having visited two times (xrays, general exam) I have noticed the foot bath area has six machines and almost all are being used almost all the time i was there... so, i will conduct a little experiment - I will notice the color of everyone's bath... because all are not on the 'same' schedule there will be some (like me) that will be doing their first bath and some that may be on their 7th treatment... ask them is they notice a trend... Next, if there are some that are cleaner than others - then you can't really chalk that up to eroding electrodes as everyone's water would also have to be about the same clarity... I will also watch very carefully how the machine is administered by the staff - do they measure out smaller 'doses' to create a false clarity....

I really don't think folks who want to heal you would all go to that length just to make an extra $35 bucks... Like you've said, they may be pulling claims out of their butt and attributing results to faulty science - but i don't think the results are based on subterfuge...

I also just received my first order of Detox Foot Pads and will use with a bit of skepticism...

Last item: one of the sites that i went to suggested the electrolysis created a stronger 'net' charge that caused the toxins to migrate to the stronger charge:

"How does it work?


The array goes into the water with the hands, feet, or other body parts, and the control unit delivers a small direct current into the array, which causes the metals within the array, in combination with the water and salt, to generate positively and negatively charged ions. These ions neutralize charged particles in the body. The neutralized particles are pulled out of the body through the skin via osmosis and diffusion. Osmosis and diffusion involve the movement of particles through a membrane, from a lower concentration to a higher concentration. In this case, the higher concentration is the ion field set up by the array in the water."


This seems plausible - however, i'm not a scientist and was rather a bad chemistry student...

i'll report back my experiment

Cheers,

Jake
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/3/31 23:48  Updated: 2009/4/1 8:20
 Re: question
It does stay over time it just loses its quantity in each color.

I have ued it quite a long time and can definately say it works.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/7 17:41  Updated: 2008/1/7 19:42
 Yeah ok...
My mom is a naturopath and she does ionic foot baths at her store... I don't believe any of this.
First of all. People feel much better after doing a foot bath. We have an old guy who has no more foot problems because of a series of 12 fooot detoxes.
Second; the loss of color over time is because of a LOSS OF TOXIN because of the foot ionization, not because my mother and sister are scamming people out of their money.
Third; the parasites that so many people have witnessed coming out of their feet and into the water: explain that. Is it a chemical imbalance in our water that is making solid masses from no where?
Like I said. Yeah, ok.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/1/7 19:55  Updated: 2008/1/7 19:55
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 Naturopathy, color changes, and parasites.
Let me first acknowledge that there is a difference between naturopathy and homeopathy. Naturopaths use herbs and such that are physiologically active in the body. Many natural substances work as well as or better than prescription drugs - even after accounting for the placebo effect.

Nothing I've said about the possible reasons for loss of color applies specifically to any case, but they're possible explanations.

With your patient who has had 12 foot baths and his feet feel better: Don't tell him about this article, because there's a good chance his improvement is placebo effect. One would never be able to prove that for one individual case, but it's a strong effect seen in wider clinical trials. I hope you're not charging him too much for this.

There are many possible causes for the loss of color, but attributing it to loss of toxin is but one assumption out of many more likely possibilities. If it's true, then you should be able to take water samples from the first and last treatments and blood samples from first and last treatments and compare them chemically.

Tell me about any other medical device or medication that sells for $40 per treatment or $1200 for a device and has such a complete lack of clinical testing. What other comparable device or drug has spread so far and wide as the ionic foot bath without having been clinically tested first?

Lastly: Parasites? Tell me more about that. This is the first I've heard of parasites coming out. Have you taken specimens to a pathologist or a University laboratory to identify? Keep in mind that electrolysis even like I did in my little demonstration did produce solid substances like little black flecks and whitish flocculate material.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/8 12:02  Updated: 2008/1/8 16:13
 Re: Naturopathy, color changes, and parasites.
During a recent visit with my family in Georgia, I decided to try the ionic foot bath detox. I had been experiencing "restless leg syndrome" for several years. These symptoms were more painful and aggravating after working a 12 hour shift on my feet. I watched in awe the water change color, etc. But even more importantly....I have not experienced restless leg syndrome since the treatment. So...bunk...hokey...or whatever....it worked for me and was well worth the $35.00 treatment. I have spent more than that on ibuprofen, alleve and tylenol with less lasting results. My grandson who has ADHD has been less restless and the calm is certainly welcoming since his 30 minute soak. I understand the concept of ATP and the cellular action due to the fact I have been a ICU registered nurse for more than fifteen years. I also believe in God and can't feel or touch him. So...maybe I am one of the gullible people....but I am also an optimist and have hope that things in this life are as good as one chooses to make them or believe. Prehaps you should experience this treatment and you might see a difference in your optimism. I plan to locate such treatments in my area and try them again. I thrown away $35.00 before buying products, clothes etc. that were not good purchases...but this treatment relieved the pain I was experiencing and I will definately try it again.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/1/8 19:38  Updated: 2008/1/8 19:38
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 Re: Naturopathy, color changes, and parasites.
I'm glad that you're feeling some relief.

Just wanted to say something about skepticism though: it's not mutually exclusive with optimism or religion. I am both a believer in God and an optimist.

It's hard to go wrong when we meet God half-way: Use the brains God gave us to use his creation to our benefit, and pray earnestly for the rest.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/9 17:12  Updated: 2008/1/9 17:46
 Foot bath garbage
I am a rational chiropractor who like the author remembers his chemistry. I am glad to see someone has taken the time to post his experiment. I hate when people are taken by this stuff and say they are eliminating toxins. I always ask them what toxins and they cannot list any because they don't know about any. Mechanical therapy, stretching of scar tissue ,exercise, joint mobilization/ manipulation all have rational explanations. Ion foot baths do not.

DC in Wyoming
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/25 14:28  Updated: 2008/1/25 16:58
 Detox patches
I know this is probably a topic for another thread...but has the author heard anything about these detox foot patches? They contain several powders (powderized tourmaline, oak vinegar, bamboo vinegar, chitosan, corn starch, etc.) that supposedly extract contaminated lymph from the system. I am familiar with the placebo effect, and I must say that I did notice that I had more energy after using these patches, which i wouldn't necessarily attribute to the placebo effect. I am not a morning person at all, but after using these i jumped out of bed and started my day in a better mood.

As I said, probably a subject for another thread, but anything you have to say will be read (with skeptisism, of course )

Rick Hawkins
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/1/25 17:02  Updated: 2008/1/25 17:02
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 Re: Detox patches
Thanks. I've heard of them, but not really looked into them.

I'm naturally skeptical of anything claiming to "detox" since these things rarely tell you specifically what substances that they detox you from.

However, since this is something that contacts the skin and contains active ingredients, I could at least see where prima facia, it's plausible they could be doing some good.

Hopefully they'd be cheap enough to try without breaking the bank. I'll think about researching them. Take care!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/27 16:07  Updated: 2008/1/27 16:33
 Re: Ionic Foot baths
First thanks for your forum. Many of us are untrained in science, the scientific method, logic, etc so a good airing of the subject is helpful.

I wanted to make a few points. In medicine, which is so extraordinarily complex, we often begin with observation, or inspiration, or anecdote. This is the foundation of medicine and on it has been built the more sophisticated methodologies we use to day. I have had many an MD or Ph. D. researcher tell me "Sometimes clinical medicine gets ahead of science and we have to catch up and figure out the how and whys." This may be the case with ionic foot baths.

Why don't you start a users blog for ionic foot baths. I think it could be of great assistance and is far better than no data at all as to how efficacious these devices actually are. Man and science moved ahead for thousands of years based on his power to observe and discern.

Secondly, you seem to be saying that because you can't think of or understand the wayionic footbaths work, or because you can debunk the way their advocates say they work, therefore they do not work. Maybe that overstates your position too strongly, but you are at least sounding skeptical enough to have made up your mind they do not and cannot work. Maybe the poor guy with red swollen feet, and the patient with peripheral neuropathy after chemotherapy improved. I can tell you, after 30 years in the practice of medicine, I don't know of any, or many ways to help some of those people. I believe there is a third possibility to consider: They do work, but not for any reason that you can think of, nor for any reason that is purported by enthusiasts.

I can think of at least one mechanism that you may not have thought of. It goes something like this: The body, with all its cells, muscles, nerves, etc are all electrochemical units. That is they are assymetrically compartmented ion concentrations(batteries or electric field generators if you will) The interactions of these electrically active units and subunits has a lot to do with how the body is functioning both at the level of the cell, the extracellular space, the lymphatics, veins, cappilaries, nerves and on and on. At higher levels of complexity this becomes harder and harder to grasp conceptually or measure. Yet we know that the body has all kinds of electromagnetic, mechanical and ionic rythms. The observed effect is "life" and "health" and "disease" and "death". My point is that this simple device generates an electromagnetic field in which the electromagnetic limbs are immersed in an ionized , electrically conducting fluid. There are a lot of potential interactions going on there that have not been considered. It is still conceivable that they do in fact work. The sales people only have to sell, they don't have to know all or maybe any of the reasons how their device works (assuming it does). Sales people are the the engines of the economy. If the device works for certain situations and they told me that it was that the device harnassed the universal cosmic energy and ran it through my feet, I'm okay witht that, that is marketing. I'd be happy if my red swollen feet improved, or my burning neurpathic pain was eased believing, or maybe not believing that cosmic energy helped me. Scientists answer questions of science and are helpful in understanding how or if someting is true or not. Clinical medicine is simply organized observation and anecdote. In the abscence of the "best tools" which are extremely expensive, you have to start somewhere.

Well, where is that? I have seen users blogs for "unscientifically proven devices" or not "FDA approved devices" where a reasonable person can collect his own data set based on the experience of others and do a risk benefit analysis on their own. Again, why don't you start one? It would be a huge help to the internet community lon the subject of ionic foot baths. Its the closest we will ever get in the next six months as to wether these devices will help our swollen, discolored, or painful feet. Lets figure out if it can help something and leave the how to somebody else.

Ionic footbath users, enthusisasts, advocates, come one come all. Post your anecdotes, good, bad, neutral in the spirit of altruism. And, above all report the truth of your experience and leave the science to the scientist.
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mamask8z
Posted: 2008/1/30 10:31  Updated: 2008/1/30 10:31
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From: Texas
Posts: 70
 Re: Ionic Foot baths
Thank you for the time and energy it took to write your post. Could it be that some have experienced benefits from the foot bath without it having anything to do with the science whosplayin tested (which is also the marketers' claim of benefit)?

Seriously, that's a great point. Kudos.

I'd like to see this discussion thread continue. Any other comments?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/1/30 4:27  Updated: 2008/1/30 8:57
 Ionic Foot bath more than satisfied user.
I did an ionic foot bath at a local spa here in San Diego. My husband is very skeptical of many of the herbal, non-medicine, et cetera, things that are on the market and for use. I have a medical issue, and I have an injury. I have always believed in herbal remedies and things of that nature.
So if you wish to throw out what I have to say... listen to this: I made my husband get an ionic foot bath treatment, he felt refreshed, and could feel a real difference in his acid reflex, for several days after his treatment. Due to the affect on my husband and myself we have wanted to purchase a ionic foot bath.

(FYI, my results were amazing too, had not seen as well for quite some time before the treatment, and I had a dramatic reduction in migraines for several days). - By the way, personal results cannot be dismissed. People all over have discussed how it has helped them, even with being skeptical going in... how do you explain that?

Oh and did you ask your wife how she felt afterwards, or is she too afraid of you not wanting to waste the money, and not be challenged to be able to stand up to you? (because reading your comments, your attitude comes off loud and clear that you don't like being challenged, Sir).

But Thank you for showing me that people can make up their minds about something before trying it and hold to a false sense of "I know better than you, even though I won't try it".
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mamask8z
Posted: 2008/1/30 10:55  Updated: 2008/1/30 10:55
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Posts: 70
 Re: Ionic Foot bath more than satisfied user.
Thank you for posting your story, and for calling Whosplayin out on his seeming lack of support for his wife. However, as his wife, I have to come to his defense.

Whosplayin tested the marketers' claims of detoxification of the body through the foot bath process. Yes, I was pissed when I got home that day and he had his little experiment all layed out. I had experienced my friend having a foot bath, smelling the old ash tray smell that came from her water. She was unable to smoke again for a day and a half because she had a residual old ashtray taste in her mouth. His experiment showed me that scientifically the detoxification of the body can't work like the marketers say. Now, reflexology and deeper work massage - that works! (anybody need those, let me know.) :)

But, my question is now (thanks to a previous poster), what if it were some other factor that caused that reaction for my friend? What if it is some other factor that we don't know yet that has caused the good results some people have experienced? Is it possible? Could it even be probable?

Whosplayin: get on that experiment. That's your chore for this month. (Think Nobel Prize)

Personally, I didn't feel a thing after my few foot baths. It was rather disappointing. I wanted to feel full of energy and no more aches and pains. But I got nothing. :( Other than a bill.

And, quite honestly, it isn't that Whosplayin doesn't like to be challenged. Far from it, actually. However, he doesn't like to be wrong and therefore he puts alot into any "project" he does so he isn't wrong. You should see the research this dude does for his political postings! Also, he doesn't like our money wasted. He's a skeptic by nature, but has to be open-minded with a massage therapist as a wife.

Thanks again for your post,
-jen
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/2/11 22:16  Updated: 2008/2/12 7:02
 Re: Ionic Foot bath more than satisfied user.
Wow... So many comments on the Ionic Foot Bath epidemic! Please move on from this post and solve world hunger.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/2/15 5:22  Updated: 2008/2/16 11:17
 Skeptical ... but satisfied
Because of a promotional offer of an ion foot bath for $15, I tried it today ... and was totally taken by the quantity of colored toxins apparently removed from my body. However ...

1) Was it more from ions corroding the impurities in electrodes (electrodes last only 100-200 baths)?

2) Did the water already contain some free mineral salts?

3) Did the ions (and possibly ozone) react with plastic bath container?

4) Did the added salts for conductivity create the colors?

5) Do I even want more negative ions in my life? I now say yes after looking at: http://www.detoxion.com/Negative%20Ions.htm

5) Finally, what part of the colored toxic garbage came from my body?

From http://www.detoxion.com/Negative%20Ions.htm I discovered that the each foot contains 250,000 sweat glands that eliminate perhaps a pint/day of water along with various salts, proteins, and fatty acids ... and which various bacteria thrive on (and why my feet stink).

My guess is a negative ion bath could easily convert the natural output of these sweat glans into a variety of colors. Perhaps osmotic flow may also remove even more salts, proteins and fatty acids in my cells, blood, and lymphatic systems ... or the associated magnetic field may make things a bit nicer in my body.

My only personal observation was most unexpected tingling in my feet both during and for several hours later.

In addition my urine for the rest of the day was totally clear (which had only happened a year previously when drinking higher PH water (high in negative ions). This was also unexpected as I had thought it would become highly colored in eliminating more salts or toxins.

Would I do it again? Yes ... but with no scientific reason other than it was an interesting low-cost personal experience!

Would I buy a ion bath unit? No, unless "Consummer's Report" does a unit comparison story.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/3/5 1:00  Updated: 2008/3/5 22:41
 Re: Ionic Foot bath more than satisfied user.
my footbath showed that my body was wanting to detoxify my liver. i was at a loss for words because just a month earlier my blood testing said my liver results were high! and my friend who tried it who has fibromyalgia had much residue pointing to the joints needing healing? i dont believe it can heal us all on its own but as an added treatment option i can see that in conjunction with other methods including obvious exercise and nutrition plus other homeopathic remedies it should be kept on board as a helpful tool.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/3/9 10:33  Updated: 2008/3/9 11:06
 Answers?
Can anyone explain after the initial 8 treatments the water becomes less and less colored to the point of no colorization? In the experiment the water was not nearly as dark as the actual treatment.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/3/9 11:13  Updated: 2008/3/9 11:13
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 Re: Answers?
I could take some educated guesses, and I think I have addressed this phenomenon in other comments. The point is that the burden of proof is on the practitioner. Many things could affect color, and all should be measured under closely controlled scientific conditions rather than looking solely at anecdotal evidence.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/3/11 14:22  Updated: 2008/3/11 14:47
 Re: Answers?
I am a LMT and the owner of the spa that I work for just purchased an ionic foot bath. I guess what worries me is that she doesn't seem to know much detail about how it is supposed to work or if it has been proven to work before marketing it to clients. She also markets steam as a means of losing weight(because the steamy wonder manufacturars claim that you can sweat out lipids once they turn to liquid at about 105 degrees)?? What? How can fatty acids fit thru your pores and aren't lipids hydrophobic(unless of course at extreme temps to which the body can't stand)? So she has people in these 120 degree steams for 30 minutes...most people can't stand it and I am convinced someone is going to have a heat stroke one of these days. I just am skeptical of most of the items or reasoning behind these items that she pushes(and probably won't be staying there much longer). Regardless of whether the ionic bath works or not, I just want more information. I feel very uncomfortable marketing things that I do not know about. She is bringing in vitamins too...now I realize that you probably can't do too much harm however since when did a 700 hour massage program make you qualified enough to push such things? And I feel like the only one at work that is made uncomfortable about this...why is everyone else just ok with not knowing?
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jakerobinson
Posted: 2008/3/27 1:58  Updated: 2008/3/27 1:58
Joined: 2008/3/24
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Posts: 2
 Some Answers from a Manufacturer
Just went to my next visit - where I will be using detox footbaths... I did not have a treatment today, we were there for a different treatment... however, i did stop and take a look at the unit being used and then did some research. This particular unit is made by Energy Balance Resources
7710 Balboa Ave., Suite 323
San Diego, CA 92111
866 522 5262 Toll Free
858 573 8451 Fax
www.4ebr.com

I went to their site to check out the particular model EB 305 Detox (used by my doctor).

It is interesting as in their FAQ page they bring up the point that the 'color chart' is a myth and just a marketing tool to sell units... they even challenge anyone to show proof... this on the other hand, offers some credibility that the unit may actually work but not based on the attribution to water color changes.... They also claim the water will change color whether a foot is in the bath or not... based on the array, anode, salts, impurities, and chemicals from the skin... I did not 'get' the science i was looking for from their site.... but here is a different site with some fairly good info: http://www.theionspa.com/Science.asp

[/url]FAQ from footbath detox manufacturer scroll down to question about water color change and click on
See water color myth » which will take you here:

color chart myth explanation

another explanation and points out the machine runs up to 24volts which supports the claim theat a min of 13.5 volts is needed to 'free' an ion...

http://www.eb305.com/

hope this helps

Cheers, jake
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/10 9:51  Updated: 2008/4/10 9:59
 Re: Answers?
I am also an LMT and the owner where I work is also selling the footbath detox. I don't believe it works and feel that it's just a quick way to make 20 bucks off an unsuspecting and uneducated public who are all looking for a quick fix to poor health. I won't recommend a treatment I don't believe in and every dollar a customer spends on a so-called "detox" is a dollar they don't spend on massage. When the business we work for pushes these kind of unproven treatments, it puts us in a very uncomfortable position when a customer asks about it. It's just another situation where profit and healing are at odds. It's difficult for me to understand why a massage therapist, properly trained in what I consider a proven method to improve and maintain good health (ie. massage), could believe that something like "ionic detox" really works. And now, to make matters worse, the owner of my workplace has brought in an Iridologist (aaarrrgggg) and is now selling supplements! This is WAY out of the realm of what an LMT is trained to do and does start to cross the line into diagnosing.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/9/3 12:04  Updated: 2008/9/3 18:01
 Re: Answers?
I too am a massage therapist that used to work at a natural health clinic. This facility offered nutritional counseling, auricular acupuncture, bought a bariatric chamber, and eventually got an Ionic Foot Bath for which they charged $50 a session. The herbalist/naturopathic practioner, who I believe was well intentioned, committed so many ethical and HIPAA violations, I could not dissociate myself from them quickly enough. You most certainly CAN hurt somebody with vitamins. Vitamin A, to name one, can build up to toxic levels within the body. I doubt their ionic foot bath would clear those kinds of toxins from the body. And I didn't want to stick around to find out whether the lady who came in with a laundry basket full of supplements (yes, the big rectangular kind) would come away poisoned or broke!

I guess my point here is buyer beware. If you're turning to alternative medicine for your health care needs, you need to shop around and be informed before you plunk down your money on just anybody or anything. I've seen amazing things that can't be explained, but I've also seen egregious abuse of kind people who put the responsibility of their health in someone elses hands.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/3 6:46  Updated: 2008/4/3 8:06
 Re: Answers?
My wife bought one of these and I am interested in doing some testing of the water before and after. Do you know who could do the testing.
Do you have any other suggested tests to try to see if this actually pulls out "toxins" or what it is?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/4/3 8:14  Updated: 2008/4/3 8:14
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 Re: Answers?
Well, you could look in the Yellow Pages for analytical laboratories.

Here are the things you would have to keep in mind:
- You want to test the water before AND after
- You need a control or two: Feet in water with no electricity, and just water in the unit for 30 minutes with electricity.
- This is going to cost you a few hundred bucks
- You need to be able to tell the lab what to look for: heavy metals, organic "toxins", etc.

One of the problems here is that "toxins" is a really general term. I've yet to hear exactly what kind of toxins are eliminated. Some practitioners claim that heavy metals are eliminated. In the one test that I've seen, there were small quantities of some metals in the water, but much smaller than the average person would consume in a day. Most "toxins" are eliminated naturally through sweat and excretion. God gave us a liver and kidneys for a reason.

If you do some tests, be sure and let us know how it turns out.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/12 13:26  Updated: 2008/4/12 22:27
 Re: Answers?
Would there be anyway to be able to attribute a lowering of cholesterol? I plan on having mine checked before I do anything and then again after a few "treatments"
I am open to any advice on tests to run.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/4/12 22:36  Updated: 2008/4/12 22:36
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 Re: Answers?
You could just have your levels checked by a blood test before and after your regimen, but it wouldn't really prove anything one way or the other as to cause and effect.

The reason is that for any particular human being, there are so many variables that affect your health. Only with large groups can you really infer a cause and effect relationship.

That being said, each individual sort of intuitively can know whether other factors might be affecting their health.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/8 10:03  Updated: 2008/4/8 15:19
 Anon SA
I've read the discussion with great interest. My first acquaintance with the ionic foot spa was unintentional last November: I had to wait for someone, and I went for a session to pass the time. I really felt energized and went for two follow up sessions.

I had another session a few days ago, more than four months later.

I can not comment on the scientific workings, and would like to ask an explanation for the experience I had.

On my first session the water started to discolor around my left foot. It was clear that nothing came from the right side (the same happened when I went again now, more than 4½ months later).

The second session went completely different, the discoloring started from the right foot. On the third session the water discolored around both feet.

On both "first" sessions the comments I got from the therapists (different ones) was the same. They both attributed it to a certain problem area (coincidentally my problem area).

Would you try to explain why the discoloring followed that pattern?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/4/8 15:44  Updated: 2008/4/8 15:44
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 Re: Anon SA
There are three questions here:

1. Why did the water discolor in a pattern?
2. How did the "therapist" diagnose my problem area?
3. If it were true that the water were somehow indicating a condition, does that mean the condition is being treated?

I'll start with Question #1. I can only guess:
A. Location of the electrodes or angle of the bottom of the container differed. The color most likely shed from the electrodes and fell onto the bottom of the container. If the bottom was slanted, the heavier salts would have run to whichever side was lower.

B. (less likely) One foot was somehow "plugged up" the first time, while colored "toxins" came out.

Question 2: How did the therapist know?
A. Some medical conditions can be reasonably guessed by observing a patient. For instance hyper or hypo-thyroidism can cause a person to have a certain look about their eyes. Liver problems can cause a change in a person's skin color. Some conditions might cause odors. Joint and muscle conditions can cause your gait and posture to change - And so on...
B. You inadvertently gave clues to your condition when you scheduled your account. Perhaps you mentioned fatigue, joint pain, indigestion, etc.
C. Lucky guess based on demographics, gender, and age.
D. Maybe there really is something to the color and pattern of coloration. (Less likely)

3. Does an indication mean there is treatment?
It's hard to say, but given the nature of the big bucks involved in diagnosing and treating disease, one would think that if there were legitimate benefit that it could have been proven or at least scientifically suggested by laboratory and clinical testing.

Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to solve!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/20 22:38  Updated: 2008/4/21 15:58
 Re: Anon SA I Love a Mystery
I am very interested in this Blog as I just had a footbath at my friends house. Her friend built her a unit with stainless steel rods. Will Stainless corrode? I was surprised as the water changed colour and as it settled it looked like the iron I see in my well water. I have heard claims that the Ionic cleanse will remove minerals from the body and you need to replenish them afterwards. I questioned was it removing the excess iron but I wondered how it would be possible.
However we were using her city water in the foot cleanse . After reading the above letters we tried the unit in her water...no feet...and the water turned very slightly yellowish. Same container, water and salt but add different feet and you get different results. There has to be more to this. I am not an expert but I love a good mystery.
I am surprised more testing has not been done. I was thinking that next time I would wait until the sediment settled after the ionic bath and put a magnet in the water to see if the sediment stuck to it. At least it would give us a clue if it was metallic. What do you think?
Try distilled water to eliminate the things in tap water. Try different salt. Eliminate some of the things and we might get closer to a solution. I am truly surprised (well maybe not considering they want to sell these machines) that the companies have not anylized the water contents after the ionic baths and posted what was in it. That would show whether it was removing "toxins"
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/25 23:19  Updated: 2008/4/26 0:34
 Re: Anon SA I Love a Mystery/ zzzzzzzzzzz
A week later and both my friend and I have been very tired since using the ionic foot bath. Exhausted is more the word. Wanting to sleep alot. Perhaps it is correct that it pulls out minerals and depletes some. Or is that a ploy to sell minerals to customers?
Perhaps it pulls out toxins which can make you tired. It is more than coincidence that we both feel that way after using the machine.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/4/26 0:38  Updated: 2008/4/26 0:38
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 Re: Anon SA I Love a Mystery/ zzzzzzzzzzz
Sorry to hear it. I'm of course skeptical that it's actually doing anything within the body at all, but I would imagine that one of the practitioners would say something like: "Oh, that's just the body's response to the toxins being loosened up."

But assuming you had ions actually zooming around in your body from a foot bath, yeah - it would be conceivable that these dumb ions wouldn't know the difference between the good stuff and the bad stuff, and might flush out minerals too.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/4/28 20:25  Updated: 2008/4/29 6:46
 Dont Knock it til you Try It!
Unless you try it don't knock it... your opinion is fine and all, but for someone who knows that it works, and understands the process I want to make it clear that this is not a 'bunk.' If you are interested in taking medications that are not needed and live in the trap of the drug companies please continue to do so. But for whomever would like to live a medication free, energy filled, healthy life please look into alternative medicine and treatments. Western medicine is designed to keep people sick and sell them drugs.... eastern medicine is designed to keep people healthy... if you get sick then something went wrong.... I have been medication free for 2 years and have only been sick once.... living proof here...
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/5/10 20:18  Updated: 2008/5/10 23:51
 Re: Dont Knock it til you Try It!
Finally we have someone who understands the process. Please, previous poster, enlighten us as to how and why this works.

Also, I'm confused by the reasoning that investigating alternative medicines will help me live a medication-free life. My humble western mind sees that as a contradiction.

I'm very interested in seeing the results from the poster who was looking to have his water analyzed. My father recently had one of these foot baths and the man selling the bath told stories of parasites and diagnosis-by-color.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/6/10 13:25  Updated: 2008/6/10 16:22
 Re: Dont Knock it til you Try It!
Hi ...I love a mystery here...
Someone just sent me this link about tests done on ionic water
http://brianmorrisdc.com/index.php?file=ion_cleanse.html
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/6/10 16:57  Updated: 2008/6/10 21:52
 Re: Dont Knock it til you Try It!
Pretty much more of the same assertions, but no data to back them up has been provided.

They state that some metals (including Aluminum, used in antacids - or zinc - used in cold medicine) increased in urine samples after the foot bath or a series of foot baths. Unfortunately, this doesn't say whether the increase corresponds to the body "unlocking" it, or whether it has been added to the body, or as I suspect - sampling error.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/6/19 1:30  Updated: 2008/6/19 1:38
 Not the right type of empirical data
Your experiment is accurate - the water WILL and DOES change color without an individual having immersed his or her feet.

However, if you would have done a bit more research you would have learned (read) this information and would not have "Needed" to conduct an experiment to "discover" this fact.

The water will change without an actual body and the change will be different based on your region and the makeup and content of the water in your region.

The smell of the smoke can most likely be attributed to the fact that the individual whose feet were in the tub is (was?) a smoker. The water in the tub of someone who is not a smoker will most likely NOT smell of smoke.

I drank a "Supergreen" mix and the water in my tub was green and smelled like herbs as a result. I observed similar results in the tub of another client. Upon asking she confirmed the fact that she too drank "Supergreens".

You should read up on the subject - but moreso than that the empirical data required to truly know about the effectiveness of this mode of treatment is NOT "Experiment" - it is EXPERIENCE.

I hope you did not go back to that place and embarrass your wife or yourself by demanding back money for a truly viable treatment.

If you did, the damage is already done, but hopefully you are not afraid to stand up to your mistakes and are able to apologize.

Misunderstandings happen all the time based on incomplete information - this would not be the first or the last time.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/6/25 7:38  Updated: 2008/6/25 12:47
 water color
We use one of these footbaths in our home here in China. I used it nearly daily for the last month with no visible effect on the water each time. No color change tho one or two very small specs of rust like material appear. I feel much better for it but it has not helped at all with chronic constipation.
Others (all oriental whereas I am caucasian) have used it frequently, always with water discoloration, mostly orange and scum forming on the surface.

Anyone understand that ?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/6/25 8:29  Updated: 2008/6/25 12:48
 Proof is in the results
Posted or not, I felt that your write up needs a response. Many feel that chiropractic is quackery and yet you believe it has helped you. I have observed several of my friends get the commercial grade baths and have had powerful results on their health.

A couple of diabetics I know have claimed to have found long term relief from neuropathy after taking these baths. I have experienced an increase in energy and less episodes of edema.

As for your test, we wanted to see the results without human contact. The contacts, foot bath and all surfaces were cleaned. We used distilled water. Besides an expected change in color to recognize the presence of the specified salt there was no other color change or flecks in the water. After re-cleaning all areas concerned the test was with washed feet of a person who had been diagnosed with high levels of heavy metals that had been rinsed in distilled water for 5 minutes to be certain all body sweat and residue was removed. The water not only turned the same color as without the feet in it, it progressed to a murky, foamy froth with presence of blues, deep yellows and deep browns as well as multiple flecks. It was really nasty. A second person who felt relatively healthy with minor aches and pains in their joints produced less flecks but colors often connected with joint problems.

Next time you attempt a scientific test, try it with all concerns. Yours was not controlled as well as you thought.

Your assumptions on the non-probability of releases toxins in this method indicates a low level of knowledge of the overall workings of the "body" electric.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/6/25 12:54  Updated: 2008/6/25 12:54
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 Re: Proof is in the results
Mine was not a clinical trial, but more of a demonstration to debunk some of the "color" theory being pushed by marketers.

Your experiment falls short of a study, and is weak in several areas. You only had two test subjects. You need at least 30, and the person setting up and evaluating the bath results should not know about the subject's reported health problems.

Further, in order to know whether the current makes a difference, you would have to have the person soak in the water without the current. You could test that water and make observations, then run the current without feet still in it to see what changes take place.

My skepticism all along has been about whether the electric current in the water does anything more than just a placebo water bath would do.

If you do get more results, post a link and some photos, along with your methodology. We'll be glad to host it if you don't have a website.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/6/27 9:35  Updated: 2008/6/27 13:43
 Thank you for using your powers of reason
My dad just got bamboozled into buying one of these devices and I found your site while looking for evidence that they don't work as indicated. The list price was $1100, reduced to $800 but because my dad had a friend in common with the vendor he only paid $300. After reading this thread I had a few comments I wanted to add.

First of all, being skeptical is very different from being pessimistic. I consider myself a skeptic, but I have great love, enthusiasm, excitement, positivity, and so forth. However I do come down very hard on certain topics, including things like ionic foot baths. I find it interesting that the same people who are convinced that our lives are being ruined because we are so loaded with toxins that we need to spend lots of time and money to suck out of our bodies would call me a pessimist!

The sellers of these devices use lots of scientific sounding lingo to make it seem legit but as you have stated, the science doesn't back it up. Now I understand that some people cringe when they here about 'what scientists say' but science has brought us the standard of living we enjoy today, and scientists as a whole are not evil liars working for the man. Perhaps the fact that we have a scientifically illiterate president is contributing to this fear and loathing of that profession.

Double-blind clinical trials are designed to get the most accurate results. (I almost said 'best results' but if you're selling a worthless doohickey, the 'best result' would be positive regardless of truth.) Double-blinding also helps prevent errors resulting from desire, confirmation bias, placebo effect, etc. And make no mistake, the placebo effect is outrageously powerful.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtfulness and well written responses to the posters. I hope they get the point that you are not trying to take something that makes them feel better away from them, but rather are trying to save them money and time that might otherwise be wasted on extremely overpriced useless gadgetry.

BTW - I'm currently developing an electromagnetic gyroscopic-ion induction colon-cleansing 100% organic purification chewing gum that will sell for only $35 per pack of 12 sticks. It is absolutely necessary for good health! Discount for case pack purchases - Buy some for your friends and family, otherwise you're complicit in their ill-health. kthxbai!
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/6/27 13:45  Updated: 2008/6/27 13:45
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Joined: 2008/12/12
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 colon cleansing chewing gum
I'd like some of that colon-cleansing chewing gum, please. Does it contain powdered rubber from ground-up racing car tires? I hope so, because as you know, race cars go fast because of the tires, so if you put ground up tires in your colon, it will make them move very quickly.

;)
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/6/30 1:32  Updated: 2008/6/30 7:55
 Re: colon cleansing chewing gum
I wanted to thank you and all of the people who have taken the time over now almost two years (!) to discuss not only ionic foot baths, but methodology itself. I read the entire thing! I was looking for links to describe the bath to invite some friends to host a party, when I came across your listserv.

Eyeopener! But after all the discussion, it does seem to come down to try it, it can't hurt. I should say, however, that the individual who has offered to do the "party" is very specific in stating that Hemophiliacs,people with pace makers, pregnant and lactating women and folks with organ transplants should NOT take an ionic foot bath.

I would have to read her materials more carefully, but given the electrical current, and the possibility that she is "grounding" one electrode on the body as suggested by a previous poster, I could see that being a bad idea for some one with a pace maker.

I do hope that the post about the electrical transmitting within the body is receiving some scientific investigatory energy from you!

Thank you again for all your effort! -Anna
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/7/23 15:21  Updated: 2008/7/23 16:02
 Ionic Foot Baths; Hoax or Help?
As a chiropractor I'm bombarded with offers to buy the latest stuff. Therefore I had completely turned off to everything but my own two hands, one brain, and one table. One winter my kids started getting run down and a bit under the weather. We took them to the pediatrician with no results over several months of anitbiotics, expectorants, and nebulizers. Finally we found our way to an naturopath/acupuncturist's office. The kids got good results and were normal the next day. We developed trust and confidence in this doctor. Later on we were introduced to the foot bath at his office. I was very skeptical and curious at the same time. The whole family tried it. The kids water turned light yellow-green. The adult's water was pretty nasty and thick with all kinds of colors and solids. The next day we all felt much better and "lighter" in body and mind. We went back as needed and always got very good results. If it were not for this doctor I would have instantly dismissed this as nonsense.

It worked so well for us I decided to add it to my practice. While it's true that a solid scientific study needs to be done, I can tell you that I have seen very positive results in all types of patients. The guy with cellulitis in his legs was able to walk and get back to work (he had been laid up in bed for 18 hours)after only two treatments. He compared the effectiveness of the foot bath to a prior treatment of 3 months on antibiotics. BTW, his water turned bright red. A woman with arthritis reported no joint pain after a treatment. A male patient losing hair saw his salivary pH rise from below 5.5 to 6.75 in only 12 treatments. His hair has stopped falling out.

I ran the whole contraption without feet in the water and found that the water did turn color but was clear and there was some clumping observed. With a patient's feet in the water the amount of gunk is indescribable as is the putrid odor. Everyone's water is different. Some have more solids or fatty white stuff floating on top. Some have blackish green water and some reddish brown. Smokers produce thick tarry black-brown pudding!

I would really like to know better how exactly this works but for now I'm using it with very good results.

My goal is to get the water tested before and after treatments but so far I can't get someone to answer the phone at the water company.

Reuven M. Rosenberg, D.C.
Israel
www.DrRosenberg.net
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/8/3 20:42  Updated: 2008/8/3 20:52
 everyone is entitled to their own opinion!
Hey I don't think that you should judge the ionic foot bath until you at least try it. I know that you are probably just as big of a pessimist as my boy friend is. however I change his mind after I drug him kicking and screaming to my house to try my ionic foot bath (which by the way I did not purchase or as you would put it flush my money down the john, it was given to my mother as a birthday present!) anyway after he had his foot bath he felt a million times better and after he did it for a month he was able to quit smoking. My experience with it was also a good one. I work as a nursing attendant for a living, barrel race horses in my spare time as well as quad as much as I can. one of my job requirements is to lift people (heavy or light) readjust them in their wheelchairs and such. In 2001 I was at a barrel race with a young horse he was being stubborn and wasn't doing what I asked him to, he got frustrated and flipped over backwards on me. now have you ever had 1500 lbs of weight come crashing down on you or to be more exact on your lower back? probably not. After the horse clammered off of me I layed there for a minute before realizing that I couldn't feel my legs. they called the ambulance but I'm a tough girl, tom boy type so I forced myself to get up after about 5 minutes. the ambulance attendants insisted that I come to the hospital to make sure that i was alright. I graciously refused but promised that I would go directly to the er after I went around the barrels one more time( if you owned horses you would understand). UN fortunately being the toughie I am didn't make it to the er that day and regreted it ever since. I have never had such pain in all my life as the chronic back pain from my fall. I have been living with the pain ever since or at least until I tried the foot bath. I tried your beloved chiropractors (witch doctors if you ask me, but that's just my opinion), tried massage therapists and it feels really good while they are doing but I went for 2 years and they didn't fix it they just made it feel better for awhile. I have been using my foot bath for 2 months now and have barley had any back pain since. anyways here is a fact for you to ponder
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.


(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.


(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.


Now think about this: Guns:
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000 (Yes, that's 80 million)


(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.

(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.
Statistics courtesy of FBI


So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.


Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR .


Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand !


Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/8/23 4:09  Updated: 2008/8/23 7:24
 One Happy Dog
Our Vet gave our dog a slim chance. I gave him an ionic foot bath. The vet is amazed!!! Sparky does not know the meaning of placebo or spiritual matters but his results confirmed for me that something is happening. Continue to debate it while I play fetch. Some people like to argue for the sake of the EGO. I understand why rats are used in drug research. They can't say " well... maybe ..maybe not, their physical results are the best results. I'm sure somewhere on the net, massage therapy is debated too. Afterall, MT never worked for me using different LMT's. But this old dog (ME) knows that some things work for others and some not.
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mamask8z
Posted: 2008/8/23 21:27  Updated: 2008/8/23 21:27
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 Re: One Happy Dog
You never found the RIGHT massage therapist.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/10/10 0:10  Updated: 2008/10/10 7:36
 Re: One Happy Dog
You are exactly right! My massage clinic is more corrective then most. I have had chiropractors come to me saying they have had it all. Have been to more then 30 massage therapists and NEVER come into contact with the kind of work I do. It is about finding the RIGHT one. Even other therapist who have gone to the same school I went to do nothing like it. Anyhoo I am building a wellness clinic slowly but surely. I will be adding this to my clinic. As for the people who have went out and bought $200 or even $1,200 ones I doubt they did anything either. I have used the original ones as well as the, let's just face it, "knock off" cheap ones. Not even CLOSE. As for the whole placeabo-effect thing.....hmmmmmmm
It doesn't hurt people.....but makes them feel better........hmmmmmmmm
So what? If it gets you the results, who cares. I beleive (just lil ol me) that we can heal ourselves through getting out of negative beleifs or thought patterns as well. Or however you want to say it. So if it gets you there go for it. No ill effects other then "The Herxheimer reaction"(BTW happends in my kind of work because what I do can stir up some pretty old sh**, not just limph fluid, It can even stir up old numbing shots from past oral surgeries as well among others.) Anyhoo yet again. I read somethin else someone said I this thread as well. Something about hey though I am just a little ol LMT so who knows what I am saying. Is yet another of my pet peeves. Just because I am an MT does not mean I do not know anything. I have met PT and OT that frankly SCARE me with what they tell people to do or what they DIAGNOSE them with. But just because they have degrees they must know it all. It WILL change believe me! Change is comming. People are realizing there is something to preventative care (what I do, not just rubbing lotion on!) We may be slow in changing but it's comming. Be ready!


ME, Colorado
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/9/21 11:47  Updated: 2008/9/21 13:02
 Completely Legit
My family owns an AquaChi ionic foot bath. Our first experiment with it was to run the entire foot bath without feet in it. The water changed color, but only slightly. It turned a reddish, coppery color. I believe this comes from the breakdown of the metal rings that channel the energy.

Now if you actually perform the foot bath with a person, the water turns different colors depending on what toxin is being pulled out of the body. And based on that, I think it's pretty impossible that it can somehow be faked. I can perform the foot bath and my water will turn black (from smoking cigarettes) and have white curdy substance floating on top (from candida). Then my mom can do the foot bath on the same machine and her water will turn more deep brown/red with black specks (heavy metals) and white foam on top (lymphatic system). Now how do you fake that?

Alas, there will always be skeptics of alternative healthcare products. And for good reason...those Kinoki foot pads (that also pull toxins out of your feet) are completely fake. So use your discresion, common sense, and your own experience to tell you what works and what doesn't. For me, I live by these ionic foot baths. I can feel a difference when I do them...they helped me quit smoking and helped control my candida.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/11/23 13:23  Updated: 2008/11/23 22:36
 Re: Completely Legit
Hey, I bought one and my water turned black, but I don't smoke. Why is that?? In this video, this guy puts a carrot in the water and the water turns all sorts of colors showing that the carrot is suffering from all sorts of human internal organ abnormalities. How can a carrot have kidney and liver issues? I tested my machine by putting just the tip of my pinky from my hand in the water. I could then see that all the scum the machine was originating came from the ion module, not my pinky. Supposedly the toxins drop to our feet and come out there. Since I don't walk around on my pinkies, explain why so much toxin came from just one of my pinky fingers on my hand? Watch the video and like me, just admit that you are gullible and try to steer other people away from being swindled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkBeYXeZbFw
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/11/23 13:13  Updated: 2008/11/23 22:38
 Don't buy in till you have seen the video
I bought into the ion foot bath. First, paid over 600 bucks to a holistic type doctor to put my feet in this. Then, though I can't say I felt any results, bought a unit on e-bay for around 280. Much cheaper to treat myself than pay a doctor to do it. After my purchase on ebay, I sort of stumbled upon this youtube vide that debunks it. The video is boring, but informative. I was suckered. Please don't allow yourselves to get suckered, too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkBeYXeZbFw


video embedded by WhosPlayin after original post
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/12/8 14:49  Updated: 2008/12/8 15:55
 Ionic Footbath Gets Results
My company manufactures and sells the IonCleanse® one of the most successful ionic footbaths on the market. We know our unit is beneficial because we routinely hear success stories from our practitioners and private users. People who use our equipment know it works by the results they get. However, we have also been interested in additional ways of demonstrating our unit’s effectiveness and can now point to a heavy metal study using the IonCleanse®. You can access these results at the Alternative Health Foundation’s website: (This is a new website that is under construction so you need to click on “study results” and “study data” (located to the right of “Coming Soon!”) to see the report). www.AHRFoundation.org.
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mamask8z
Posted: 2008/12/8 22:12  Updated: 2008/12/8 22:12
Editor
Joined: 2004/6/5
From: Texas
Posts: 70
 per the ionic foot bath study indicated
"The current research study utilized a pre-post design with no control group to examine the association between levels of Aluminum, Arsenic,
Cadmium, Lead, and Mercury measured in whole blood prior to initiating the sessions with the IonCleanse® and after 12 weeks of sessions.
A whole blood measure of these metals typically reflects recent exposure, making it a less than ideal medium for the current study." (http://www.ahrfoundation.org/dlfiles/study_results.pdf)

Isn't having a control group for scientific experiments basic form?

AS THE STUDY SUGGESTED, the heavy metals tested in whole blood reflects recent exposure - with no control group. I'd consider these findings to be from an invalid study. Just another "scientific" commercial.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/12/9 0:34  Updated: 2008/12/9 0:34
Editor
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 Not a conclusive study.
In addition to the lack of control group, I see more problems with the study:

1. The study participants were heavily weighted with an inherent bias toward achieving positive results for the study.

"Participants included 31 adults recruited in Colorado (CO) and North Carolina (NC). They ranged in age from 21 to 77 years, with a mean
age of 45.4 years. The majority of participants were from Colorado (see Table 1). A variety of methods were used to recruit participants.
• Metal workers at the CO plant that produces components of the IonCleanse® were invited to participate (n = 8)
• People attending an alternative health clinic in North Carolina for other reasons were invited to participate (n = 8)
• Referrals from current IonCleanse® users in CO (n = 15)
Beyond the free IonCleanse® sessions and free supplementation, participants were not compensated for their participation"


It would be akin to studying the effectiveness of breast-feeding infants by only studying members of La Leche League, their best friends, and the employees of a breast pump manufacturer. It's not as if people can will their blood to show less of a substance, but knowing that they are participating in a study, there could be an effort to be more careful about exposure - for instance avoiding certain antacids to keep aluminum levels down.

2. You're measuring multiple variables. In addition to the foot baths, you have people drinking 8 glasses of water, taking "1 oz Intra Max mineral drink" suppliment. Participants were also instructed to relax and meditate for the duration of the treatment. Since these extra factors are not controlled, we don't know what may be causing the results. For all we know, the extra water intake may be helping people eliminate these substances naturally in the urine.

3. Sample size is too small. There are only 31 participants. It's more like a phase I safety trial than a full-blown study. Because of this, some results were not statistically significant. (and the explanation says as much)

4. The levels shown are not clearly quantified. If I'm reading correctly, it appears that the units shown in the data are in PPT (parts per trillion). I may not be reading that right - may be PPB, but the data don't show that clearly. In any case, these levels may be orders of magnitude smaller than a person's average daily intake, or established "safe" levels. It's just not apparent.

The study itself has the following listed under "Limitations":

"When reading this research report, one should keep in mind that a non-experimental design with no control group was utilized. As a result, no causal conclusions can be drawn. Rather, all that can be concluded is that following IonCleanse® sessions levels of each substance measured in whole blood did or did not change. Any observed changes could be due to the IonCleanse® session or could be due to some other factor that was not measured or controlled in this study."


I do hope that the manufacturer will look at finding a way to do this as a controlled, double-blind trial.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/12/9 20:05  Updated: 2008/12/9 20:21
 Re: Not a conclusive study.
You’re criticism about our study would apply if the company was making medical claims. You have chosen to debunk the product but you have offered no real data to prove the veracity of your debunking statements.

You’re “phase 1 clinical trial” statement implies that the manufacturer of the IonCleanse® is making or intends to make a medical claim about the device. AMD has filed an application with the FDA to have its unit classified as a non medical device. The company does not make false claims; nor does it use any gimmicks to get people to purchase its products. The company has been in business for nine years without incident. At a usage rate of 40,000 to 60,000 IonCleanse® footbaths a month, and with continuous strong sales, this is a remarkable achievement. Compare that with the nearly eight hundred thousand deaths per year from adverse drug reactions and medical mistakes in the United States annually (Death by Medicine by Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean, MD; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD)*, and it’s hard for me to understand why you are knocking a safe device for which no medical claims have been made. You have such a fertile opportunity to do some real good by exposing medical practices that clearly harm humans, FDA clearances notwithstanding.

In closing, the marketplace is always the ultimate arbiter of good and bad and right and wrong. People receive benefits from our units and our nutritional approach, which is why our company has maintained its success. The bottom line will always be whether the purchaser of the device (which costs $2000) receives a benefit sufficient to justify the cost. Whatever your arguments about the viability of the study, you have numerous testimonials from people who have had positive results from ionic footbath treatments. I notice that you ignore many of these; my guess is that you might begin to sound silly, attributing all positive experiences to the placebo effect. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

We encourage informed consumers to visit our website and judge for themselves. www.amajordifference.com.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2008/12/14 11:58  Updated: 2008/12/14 20:13
 Re: Not a conclusive study.
We can supply the data you need to debunk the ioncleanse and other ionic footbath units. Check out http://www.footbathtruth.com. The whole story is going up there... the good, the bad and definitely the ugly parts!!.....

Its a work in progress, so you'll have to keep returning for the latest, but we are blowing the lid off this puppy.

We can honestly say from both experience and first hand knowledge that the ioncleanse and all its buddies using a cheap switch mode power supply with a few simple plates submerged in the water and the others such as the cellspa that use some coiled bed spring wire are scams and shams!

Come on guys!! I've been out of the industry for a little while and this is what you have done with it! You actually believe your own waffle and are trying to peddle it.

Well, I invented the technology and we developed and marketed it years before all this ionic crap hit the market and there is actually true science behind it, but not the garbage that is oozing out of some of the . Time now to straighten it all out.

Now lets look at some of these statements... shall we.
1."The company does not make false claims; nor does it use any gimmicks to get people to purchase its products."
Do you really want me to touch this one?

2. "The company has been in business for nine years without incident."
Once again, first hand knowledge dictates that the Biocleanse started in 2002 followed by the ioncleanse in 2003 (after someone ripped them off..lol) and then the formation of amajordifference.com
Registrant:
A Major Difference, Inc.

2950 S Jamaica Court
Suite 300
Aurora, Colorado 80014
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: AMAJORDIFFERENCE.COM
Created on: 10-Apr-03
Expires on: 10-Apr-16
Last Updated on: 31-Jan-08

So..... where's the 9 years guys? Oh, you mean 9 years accumulated experience between you all maybe?

I could have a field day with this whole conversation, but I'd better keep it for next time.

Needless to say, this industry has become so rife with bull#$%* that its stinking up the whole internet and is need of a good enima.


Yours sincerely,

Terry Skrinjar & Steve Walker
The Originators of the footbath industry.


P.S. If you have a problem with anything I've said, I'd be happy to back it all up with any proof you need.

P.P.S. This is going to be fun!
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2008/12/14 23:12  Updated: 2008/12/14 23:12
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Re: Not a conclusive study.
You've got an interesting site there. You seem to be drawing a real distinction between the Aqua Chi and other types of foot bath equipment.

You mention a "phased array" multiple times, but when I look up phased array, I see mostly references to antenna types for RF transmission. Perhaps you could explain a little more about how that works.

In spite of all that's been said here, I keep an open mind, and I don't see that at all inconsistent with being skeptical.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/2/24 2:49  Updated: 2010/2/24 9:11
 Re: Not a conclusive study.
Did you ever receive an answer to your phased array question?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/1/27 5:48  Updated: 2009/1/27 9:45
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
First I would like to say that if nothing else the ionic foot bath/spa/detox will make the skin on your feet nice and soft and easy to scrub off the old gunk. Sure so would soaking in water with salt without the ionic treatment but not as much incentive for those that might need it. Ok, now on to my experience. Yes I recently purchased one for personal health reasons. I have used mine 5 times now. The first time the water looked like fudge after 30 minutes. I thought about trying to see what would happen without my feet in the water. It does not work. The machine will not start the ionic procedure without my feet in the water and I had to have the wrist band on and plugged in to the unit. So I thought about not using any salt, nope that won’t work either so just continued the treatment to see if the water would lessen in color. It did but not much from the first to third try, less the fourth but not significantly. I decided to improvise and used Epsom salt vice iodized salt. It worked fine and after 30 minutes I thought ok, that proves it is just the iodized salt having a chemical reaction. I decided to restart and go another 30 minutes. I was sitting at my computer with my feet in the water (I was careful) and the time passed by quickly so restarted the unit again. Total of 90 minutes with the detox machine doing whatever it does. I use a blue plastic basin that I purchased for use as the unit did not come with one. I could not see much floating like the previous uses with iodized salt and with the basin being a moderately dark blue color I could not see what the water really looked like. That was until I dumped it out in the shower. What the heck, the water was the color of pink Kool-Aid. It was actually pleasant to look at. So am I for or against it, neither really just that I use it because I paid for it and if nothing else my feet do feel better after I finish. Even if it has nothing more than a placebo effect then I would say why not if you can afford the price. The power of positive suggestion can be stronger than any negative thinking when it comes to a persons feeling of well being. It should go without saying, never try to replace a licensed doctor’s advice with anything that has not been clinically proven! Almost forgot, do I feel better? Yes but that is probably because I have recently started a fresh fruit and vegetable ‘juice’ routine daily. Now you can bank your money, and your health on fresh juice. It will make you feel better. It will make you healthier and more energetic and it may even prolong your life. Jack says so
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2009/1/27 9:48  Updated: 2009/1/27 9:48
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
"The machine will not start the ionic procedure without my feet in the water and I had to have the wrist band on and plugged in to the unit."

Ahh... Now they are using a wristband. This makes a circuit through your body to the electrodes. This is the first I've heard about that. I wonder what their ostensible reason for the wrist strap is?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/1/27 15:41  Updated: 2009/1/27 21:58
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Water was the color of pink Kool-Aid? Epsom salt chemical reaction to the ionic submersible array? Does anyone have an explanation for this outcome? I would find it interesting for any of the many chemists that have commented, both positive and negative on this subject to explain what could have caused such a drastic change in color from fudge to pink Kool-aid.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/2/3 11:42  Updated: 2009/2/3 21:20
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Can anyone explain the difference in the color, does Epsom salt make the water a pink color?
After viewing the video with the carrot,where the water turned brown, same color as I have experienced using iodized salt, seems there is little doubt left that these things do not work. Or at least the color the water changes to is deceiving.

I decided to improvise and used Epsom salt vice iodized salt. It worked fine and after 30 minutes I thought ok, that proves it is just the iodized salt having a chemical reaction. I decided to restart and go another 30 minutes. I was sitting at my computer with my feet in the water (I was careful) and the time passed by quickly so restarted the unit again. Total of 90 minutes with the detox machine doing whatever it does. I use a blue plastic basin that I purchased for use as the unit did not come with one. I could not see much floating like the previous uses with iodized salt and with the basin being a moderately dark blue color I could not see what the water really looked like. That was until I dumped it out in the shower. What the heck, the water was the color of pink Kool-Aid. It was actually pleasant to look at.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/3/11 8:15  Updated: 2009/3/12 8:00
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
I agree with your way of thinking but please do the experiment correctly, Use pure DC voltage and the same metal. These machines use stainless steel not two different metal.
The reaction and water color is from the metal. Is there an Ion reaction with your feet?
I do not know. I did not do any testing on a science level but I did try the bath and it did ease the pain in my feet by about 90%. Making me think I should look further into this.
My conclusion: neither positive or negative. Needs more research.
But if it works for you, it works.

Gene
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/3/31 23:45  Updated: 2009/4/1 8:20
 actually it does
I have a friend who practices Ionic foot bathing and has saved many peoples lives with it. With over 300 clients people love what it does. I myself love it too but it has proven to create drastic weight loss and heal pains and ailments as well as pull out fat sugars and toxins, even drugs.

Most of the faces of this board could all use this help if you ask me and I am 4x trained in die and nutrition so I feel my 4k plus clients verify my own knowledge.

The real strain on this is the cost of the machine and people who'd rather trust their prescriptions, causing candida a sugar and yeast ( same thing ) infestation that casues the negative additude and strain.

find someone willing to bargain, become their friend and do it once a week for 3 months you'll become your perfect you balancing more than you ever expected.
good luck, peace and willingness to all
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/6/7 10:53  Updated: 2009/6/7 22:16
 Re: actually it does
Three years ago my girlfriend tried to convince me to go have an Ion Foot Bath done by a Natropathic Doctor. So I did. Prior to buying his unit he was very very skeptical and would only offer this as a service if he used it and found results. His first foot bath was disgusting, and he thought it to be quackery, so he bottled up some of that nasty water and send it to a private water anaylisis place. The tests came back with Agent Orange from the Viet Nam war in it along with other chemicals. That was 30 years of these toxins being in his body. Because he took very good care of his health he did not suffer the effects many vets did.

After doing my first foot bath my eyes burned from the fumes that were created. It was uric acid and here I was developing a bladder infection which was proven by a urnine sample.

Anyway, I bought my own unit. At the time I was in a custome Knee brace and could not bare my weight on my right leg and my calf muscle was atrophy. After 1 and 1/2 month of using the device three times a week I was out of the knee brace and have not had it on since.

Not all units are created equal, and many cheap copy cats have croped up in the market place. Does the ION Foot Bath work? A quality unit absolutely it does! So to the naysayers...live with your body toxins. As for me, I am walking proof.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/4/23 10:12  Updated: 2009/4/23 13:00
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Check out the best on ion foot bath in the marketplace. (url deleted)
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/5/29 2:40  Updated: 2009/5/30 0:55
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
If the product has the words "ionic" "detox" or "footbath" in its name or description then the conclusion that this is a hoax or Quackery is 100% correct.

BUT

The Real inventer of this concept built the origional BEFE unit on his farm in New South Wales, Australiain 1996. The Q2 Energy Spa and the Aqua Chi are the decendants of this technology.... and built in 1997 and 2000 respectively.

These units work.... all the rest are dangerous copies. I do agree they should be banned or at least prove their "falsely implied" claims.

see

www.footbathtruth.com/

(this website isnt completely true either as they leave out the fact a befe healing unit existed before the Q2 or Aqua Chi was built.)
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Everblu
Posted: 2009/8/22 5:27  Updated: 2009/8/22 5:27
Joined: 2009/8/22
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Reading this blog made me want to get the product, especially because I have chronic health problems doctors can't fix. I have no reason to doubt so many personal testimonies. But then I saw the prices and THAT alone made me agree with the blog owner that it might be a scam.
Why does a little gadget like that have to cost over $1,000.00? Is it made of solid gold or something? Where can I find plans to make my own?
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2009/8/22 21:20  Updated: 2009/8/22 21:20
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Joined: 2008/12/12
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 Non-traditional treatments
I think if I were going to try something non-traditional (and I'm totally open-minded to that), I would go with something that was either dirt cheap, or had other beneficial side-effects.

For instance, there's the concept of reflexology - a special type of foot massage where it is thought that certain points on the sole of the foot can affect organ function and other parts of the body. Whether or not it works is in the eye of the beholder, but it feels darn good.

Or if you wanted to use the Kinoki Foot Pads, you can buy these things at Walgreens for about $20 a box - which would last a week or more, I think. (and I'm not saying they work - just that they're cheap, they turn black, and they stink) I should post a review of those...

Another thing that would give you about as much benefit as the ionic foot bath would be to just soak your feet in salt water for an equivalent period of time.

Best of luck with your health though, and please let us know what you find out.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/9/17 15:58  Updated: 2009/9/17 16:49
 Re: Non-traditional treatments
My dear friend is TRAINED in ionic foot baths, the key word being TRAINED. She has a professional grade machine and we HAVE tested it without feet in it. 25% of the color does come from the water... the rest comes from your body. The Kinoki foot pads will change whether they are on your feet or not but they are pulling stuff out of the enviroment. Trained professionals will not put salt in the bath, fyi.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/9/17 22:58  Updated: 2009/9/18 7:35
 Re: Non-traditional treatments
I was TRAINED to read Tarot cards. I'm also CERTIFIED to perform marriage counseling from a website. I LEARNED to tune crystals to remove bad harmonics from a room.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/8/10 1:22  Updated: 2011/8/10 8:50
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
THEY SELL FOR 250 ONLINE
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/12/11 21:58  Updated: 2009/12/12 3:00
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Just wanted to let you know that an open mind isn't needed on this. It Really works! My father has severe kidney problems but because of the ionic foot baths he has been able to stay off dialysis. We have bot a foot bath for him after he was having them done at a holistic healers office. The results are proven not by what the healer says but by the blood tests that my dad get done weekly at the doctor to check his kidney function. If not for the bath the doctor says he would be doing dialysis 3 time a week. So get your facts right be for you write stuff that you don't know any thing about. THIS PRODUCT IS HELPING PEOPLE! AND CLOSED MINDED PEOPLE WITH BIG MOUTHS DON'T
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2009/12/12 3:03  Updated: 2009/12/12 3:03
Editor
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 Glad he's doing better
I'm glad your father is doing better. This is still anecdotal. The only way to know whether it's any more effective than a placebo is to design and do a clinical study.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2009/12/16 1:27  Updated: 2009/12/16 8:52
 Re: Glad he's doing better
unfortunately a lab test is proof weather or not doctor recommends the treatment or not. the facts are that if he missed a foot bath his toxins were much higher than if he had had a foot bath. since we have been told by his kidney doctor that the foot baths were making a difference in his toxin levels. but he as a doctor can not recommend a treatment that is not AMA or FDA approved that he because of that could only recommend dialysis. Also the makers of professional ionic foot baths are trying to get AMA approval so if and when they request people for clinical study i would hope that you will print a retraction. for now the hospital blood tests results that we continue to get every week will work for us. and hopefully someone will read this and try a foot bath. it's not for everyone. but anyone who wants to try it should.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2009/12/16 13:30  Updated: 2009/12/16 13:30
Editor
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 Still not proof
First let me say that I'm sincere when I say that I'm glad he's doing better. If it seems to work for him, then he needs to stick with that, and do NOT let him read what I'm about to say.

Once again, with anecdotal evidence like this (works for me), we can't eliminate the placebo effect, which recent studies show is getting larger in more recent clinical trials of various drugs. People who receive a treatment - any treatment, whether scientifically sound or not, seem to respond to some degree. Part of that is just believing. I don't know if there are good explanations for HOW that works, but we do know that it happens.

The danger of promoting unproven (clinically) treatments is that some people may delay or refuse treatment that is better or more cost effective.

I really would like to see the industry, which has made a ton of money by now, fully fund a professionally managed double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical study.

If that happens, I'll be glad to remove this whole thread and trumpet the results for the world to see.
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BrightDawn
Posted: 2010/2/5 23:18  Updated: 2010/2/5 23:18
Joined: 2010/2/5
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Posts: 1
 Re: Still not proof
Wow, this thread is an incredible read. I was researching naturopathy (as a last-ditch, last-resort way of getting a diagnosis for a condition!), but I saw that a naturopath in my city was offering this service. It seemed like a load of hooplah to me, but I wanted to research it and see what other have to say about it.

I don't really have a solid opinion on it--I don't really believe that it works, but I'm not hands-down passionate on that opinion. Maybe it does, but I don't think I'd pay money to try it, either. I'm only posting because I wondered if you ever did go back to your chiropractor and show him your theory? Also, I think it's pretty wonderful that you still respond to posts years after you posted this thread. This site must keep you busy!
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2010/2/5 23:40  Updated: 2010/2/5 23:40
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Joined: 2008/12/12
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 Re: Still not proof
Thanks for stopping by. We did end up getting credit for the treatments my wife bought, and we used them for chiropractic adjustments. But the chiropractors moved to a new location, installed multiple permanent foot bath basins, and began running people in there like cattle. It was all about the upsell, and trying to get you to a "chiropractic lifestyle".

I fired them. And it's a shame, because the adjustments helped, and now and then I get to feeling like I need one, and wish I could go back. But I realize they were just trying to soak my insurance.

I really don't have a lot of answers, and I've got to tell you that I'm just frustrated as hell with the state of health in this country, and the fact that we have a sick care industry that views patients like a commodity to be diagnosed and sold on expensive treatments that happen to coincide with whatever your insurance will pay the most for. But seeing how profound the placebo effect is, it makes me really think that a lot of what ails us has to do with mental attitude.

Anyhow, that's my two cents for tonight. Be well, and best of luck with your diagnosis.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/2/7 11:45  Updated: 2010/2/7 12:23
 Re: Still not proof
Well stated, Steve! Why doesn't someone contact Myth Busters on this? I'd believe their study more than one conducted by the industry that will profit from a good study and do you think they would publish the outcome if it turned out bad]. Also, I agree with you about the dangers of people not seeking treatment for a true illness because they believe that this works. The mind can override pain and make you think that you are well when you are not. My son is ill and a woman from church offered to lay her hands on him to heal him. After talking it over with my husband, we asked her to continue praying for him and we would keep her offer in mind. I'm won't argue with people that laying on of hands in real...that is a personal preference. I won't even argue with those that say that praying doesn't help...again, that is a personal preference.
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michael
Posted: 2010/4/14 2:14  Updated: 2010/4/14 2:14
Joined: 2010/4/14
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: Has anyone heard of Dr. Robert Beck
This treatment sounds like something from Robert Beck. What is your theory about his claims. I would love to be able to inform others of something more positive than a placebo. I am sure you want to move on from this subject. Sorry to here some peoples ignorance result in name calling. I appreciate trust worthy people such as yourself.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2010/4/14 8:16  Updated: 2010/4/14 8:16
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Joined: 2008/12/12
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 Re: Has anyone heard of Dr. Robert Beck
I hadn't until I just now googled him. Wow - yeah, his work does sound very similar to some of this stuff. Very pseudo-scientific. Have a look at this video:



He tries to sound very authoritative and confident, using medical and scientific language and diagrams, but actually says nothing of substance to explain why his process (ostensibly) works.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/3/19 0:43  Updated: 2010/3/19 9:31
 Re: Still not proof
I must say that you're above average intelligence and most people might be very angry about that, because thinking deeply makes many people feel very uncomfortable if not angry as heck. But keep being a thinker we do need this type of mind among us...
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iwilliam
Posted: 2010/4/12 17:10  Updated: 2010/4/12 17:10
Joined: 2010/4/12
From:
Posts: 1
 Re: Still not proof
Wow, what an amazing bunch of wing-nuts.....

Yes I said it.....

I commend and applaud you "who's playin". But I'm extremely saddened at the lack of education or even basic common sense that so many people exhibit in such a technologically advanced society.

I actually thought the "dumbing-down" of our society, albeit "media", "government" or "corporation" would cease, due to the advent of internet and information at our finger tips.

Wrong again.

Guess I'm digressing.

Ok...Just to clarify how things "actually" are in the real world....

An ion is just an atom with unequal electrons and protons, giving it a positive or negative charge.
If you take away a proton, then you have a negative ion or in proper terminology a "anion".
So of course if you take away an electron, you have a positive ion or "cation".There are also monatomic ions, polyatomic ions, radical ions and all kinds of other atoms zinging around us at speeds that only irrational men care to calculate.

Now, here's the kicker....

All of these molecules that are zinging around us at these phenomenal speeds, are also bombarding us and passing through us at these same speeds. It's not like there is some kind of "invisible" wall shielding is from the sea of atoms that we swim through.

Oh, wait I feel another kicker coming on...

Ready for this...
Those same atoms and molecules that surround us and pass through us at a constant rate, are the same atoms and molecules that the chair you are sitting on is made of. They are the same atoms that the book your reading (well maybe not that) is made of. The same atoms that your computer is made of and yes folks, the very same atoms that YOU are made of. As a matter of fact, they are the same atoms that roughly 90% of the known universe is made of.

Oh wait, what about these "special" anions that posses some kind of mystical power to enter our our bodies and attack all of the toxins that naturally build up and escort them to the bottom of our feet where they are tossed into a bucket of ever darkening water.

Sorry.....

Oh yeah and whomever it was who stated that OH+ and H- ions can be created through electrolysis, probably shouldn't breed. We'll call it natural selection, the thinning of the herd.

The only remotely beneficial characteristic that anions posses, is a tendency to slightly increase serotonin levels in about 1 out of 3 humans. So, if you have manic depressive tendencies (now we call it bipolar disorder, that sounds so much nicer, don't ya think)or you suffer from S.A.D. (seasonal associative disorder which anions statistically work far better for) then I suggest you move out of the cities and head to the country, hang out around some waterfalls, take longer showers, cause that's where nature tends to assemble the vast majority of negative ions.

END OF DEBATE

I hope that was helpful

Keep watching television America.......

Shane Michael Austin Tx
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/7/17 20:18  Updated: 2010/7/17 21:41
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
The foot bath actually works to take out all the toxic metals that you usually get from vaccines and other stuff they put in processed food. My son got eczema the day after he got his 2 month shots. He had suffered from this for over 4 years until he had the foot bath done. The first time he had it done he did not itch for 3 days nor did he whine about itching. We had to do several treatments to get all those toxic metals out of his system. Shame on vaccines. As a mother I am glad I took my son to have this done. The reason the nail worked is maybe its metal. But my son doesnt have eczema anymore.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/7/19 11:06  Updated: 2010/7/19 11:57
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
If you are truly concerned about heavy metals in your body, see a real doctor and do FDA-approved chelation therapy.

AND please stop blaming vaccines for everything! I would much prefer to vaccinate my children than to have them suffer or die from the diseases that we vaccinate against. Young mothers these days cannot remember people dieing from things like whooping cough/pertussis or polio but I can. The only "shame" on anything related to vaccines is that people don't get them for their children and some of these diseases are having a resurgence.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/8/2 0:45  Updated: 2010/8/2 8:22
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
So you would rather pump your children full of sheep, mouse and hampster overy cells used in vaccines, Remicade and Enbrel than try a natural treatment of water, salt and electricity that polarizes the cells? What sounds totally crazy here?

Vacinnes - Remicade and Enbrel paralyzed my mother slowly over 8 years time. Ionic therapy, cold laser are brining her back to life.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/8/2 17:22  Updated: 2010/8/2 18:10
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
I would instead of seeing them suffer and die from the diseases that the vaccinations protect them from. Every drug has side effects and all can easily be checked out at the CDC website then you can make an informed decision as to whether the minuscule side effects of the drug are better or worse than what it protects you against. I am truly sorry that your mother is ill and I hope she gets well but you can't throw the baby out with the bath water.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/8/4 12:48  Updated: 2010/8/4 12:55
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Neither Remicade nor Enbrel are vaccines. They are drugs used to relieve the symptoms of certain autoimmune disorders (conditions in which the immune system attacks healthy parts of the body and causes pain, swelling, and damage) like rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's disease, etc.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2014/2/28 22:05  Updated: 2014/3/1 15:57
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
good for you. vaccines are gross.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/8/12 17:08  Updated: 2010/8/12 21:43
 Ionic Foot Baths
If one had a water ionizer for making drinking water a higher ph shouldn't you be able to get results from footbaths using water directly taken from such an ionizer without having to buy one of these footspa's plus be able to drink the Alkyline water?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/8/30 10:03  Updated: 2010/8/30 10:47
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths
Just wanted to reiterate, don't knock something til you've tried it. I have stage 4 breast cancer and am going to try this machine. If I went for all the treatments that were "scientifically studied" with proper control groups, I'm not sure I'd be alive right now. Yep, I've been duped by idiots making money off me. But....I've also been using therapies that are quite effective. Right now, I'm using a therapy that traditionally has a 50% cure rate for end stage 4 breast cancer but the medical profession has deemed it illegal. The only legal options available are proven to not cure stage 4 breast cancer. I was cured of rotator cuff by a chiropractor and chronic urticaria (I used diet and after I was cured, my Dr. called the diet quackery) by myself. Both of which, I was given up on by regular medicine. The medical Dr.'s wanted to do surgery on my shoulder and said the urticaria was an ailment that appeared "mysteriously" and just as "mysteriously" would disappear...I waited and suffered for a year. All of you folks discrediting therapies you've not tried, walk a mile in my shoes. Your ranting at the worst could cost lives. I don't have the time to wait around to see what new scientifically proven stage 4 breast cancer treatment will come down the pipe...I have to act NOW!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/11/6 17:00  Updated: 2010/11/6 19:58
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Wow! Won't this thread ever die??? The original story is FOUR years old and someone just posted a response to a comment from 2007...REALLY?

Who'd of thought that of all of the topics posted on whosplayin.com the ionic footbath would be the most controversial and long-lived!
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PKelly
Posted: 2010/11/8 14:14  Updated: 2010/11/8 14:14
Contributor (Verified User)
Joined: 2010/2/14
From:
Posts: 185
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
All I know is that after I startd using the Ionic FootBaths, my grammer improveded dramatically as did my speeling.

Just saying...
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Anonymous
Posted: 2010/11/13 17:40  Updated: 2010/11/13 18:38
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Well, that is just rude. I posted about letting the thread die just because I find it amusing that THIS is the most debated and longest running post on whosplayin. I don't question those that say it has worked for them. I don't chose to use it or believe the hype but they have the right to their opinion without being subjected to mocking.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/2/14 12:40  Updated: 2011/2/14 12:57
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
And I suppose the power of prayer is bunk as well?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/6/3 17:31  Updated: 2011/6/3 17:35
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
I was thinking about buying one of these baths, and I'm still considering it.
I had a couple of these done, and they actually made the bottom of my feet sore for a few days. The first one intrigued me, so the second time around, I took a clean pint jar with me. After the bath, I scooped out a sample of the dark, foamy liquid, brought it home, and put some on a slide. At a four hundred magnification, I found what looked like loads of small worms. Now, unless they have some kind of pill that they hide in the thing, these baths work.
Thanks for the post.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2011/6/3 17:46  Updated: 2011/6/3 18:59
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Worms in your water? Gross!
That's interesting. See, I'd be mortified to see any critters in the water, because to me that would indicate that the machine was not cleaned out well. Do you think it's possible, your feet hurt because there were parasites in the water that have now infected you?

Seriously, you should call your local health department and have the facility checked out. If you still have any of that sample, you might want to take it to them.

Update: Did they look anything like this photo of Trichophyton rubrum at 400x?
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/6/5 3:44  Updated: 2011/6/5 4:44
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Interesting read.
Always remember rule 1: never feed the troll(s)!!
Also, if this stuff is allegedly as toxic as people claim & they are dumping it down the drain (putting it back I to the ecosystem, etc) are they not breaking some sorts of laws?
Do you store the waste like motor oil & take it for recycling to like, what a Jiffy Lube sort of deal?
A real BS detector for this sort of thing would be just to simply ask: where does the bad stuff go when you are done? Hate to be a bummer dude.
Frankly it's swell that you and your kinfolk are better-but those of us down river are kind of f'd hazmat wise.
.....this is of course , assuming that you believe this sort of thing.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/6/5 13:57  Updated: 2011/6/5 19:25
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Those down river are not "f'd" because there is no hazardous waste in the water after an ionic footbath. It never ceases to amaze me how gullible people are when they want to believe a health cure like this instead of doing the things that would cause you to be more healthy like eating right, working out at some level, and lowering your stress level. In the Old West, there were traveling "doctors" that sold elixirs that would cure everything from a hangnail to smallpox. Now, they don't have to travel. You can find them pimping their wares on infomercials and the internet. They live by the adage that a fool and his money will be soon parted.
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WhosPlayin
Posted: 2011/6/5 20:16  Updated: 2011/6/5 20:16
Editor
Joined: 2008/12/12
From:
Posts: 3892
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Yep, more snake oil salesmen now than there ever were. I hope our kids are learning more about science so their generation will be a little less gullible.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/7/21 12:58  Updated: 2011/7/21 13:23
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Too many posts to read them all. It sure struck a nerve with some.

This may have been said earlier but i will just say this briefly. If there has not been any formal scientific studies done then how can anyone say anything about its efficacy other than from individual experience.

I say to all those nay sayers. Some day, when you feel sick or have an arse ache go spend $25 bucks and have one done. Then you can piss all yuo want about it. Until them be open.

I was suffering from insomnia and the allopath gave me several tested pharmcetical drugs. None of them worked for me. Should I conclude the testing big pharma did was rigged?

Amen.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2011/7/21 18:01  Updated: 2011/7/21 20:23
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Good God, please archive this article! It is 5 years old and still gets folks commenting on it. Those that believe will continue to believe and those that don't believe will not be convinced by anything posted here.

And, Anonymous 2011/7/21 10:58:50, if you don't have the time to read all of the posts and haven't followed the 5 years of discussion, why post? You believe it and it worked for you but I personally think it is a bunch of BS. We are both entitled to our opinion...neither is right and neither is wrong.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2012/11/13 3:02  Updated: 2012/11/13 9:07
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
I must give my antidotal story. I have done 800 to 900 footbaths between others and myself and my wife. Many stories could be told but this one was the most amazing. A man who 3 months before I met and gave him a foot bath had had a 3000 lb truss fall off his truck and onto his foot as he tried to get away. He had a long open cut underneath his foot with a large quarter size hole in the back of his heel. He was on his hospital bed in his living room with his girlfriend when I came to give him a foot bath. He wanted to buy one but I insisted on a foot bath first. Yes I sell them and the model I sell is in my opinion one of the best as the results speak for themselves. But I didn't mention the brand as I'm not trying to sell anything. When I saw his foot, he was very dark purple from halfway down his leg below the knee to the tip of his toes. Pretty gross to see. When his girlfriend took off the bandages, the hole in his heel started immediately started dripping blood. Every week the doctor would scrape out dead tissue and pus. I didn't know until later that the doctor had insisted on 2 occasions that he have his leg taken off. I gave him the foot bath. I then turned away from him to clean up everything as his girlfriend dried him off and re bandaged him up. When I turned around, he was lying on his bed. What I saw totally blew me away. All 5 toes of his bad foot looked just the same color as his healthy foot! At his next doctor visit, there was nothing to scrape away. Every week as he went in the doctor observed the large cut and hole in his heel were starting to fill in with healthy tissue. After 2 months of continuous foot baths, he started physical therapy. He has saved his leg and foot and now only walks with a slight limp. You can always make the placebo argument, but we have seen far too much success with the foot bath to believe that including skeptics that received benefit. And if this was simply a placebo effect with this guy's foot, then maybe we should call Guinness book of records as the all time winner.
I don't get caught up at all in guessing the color changes. I have run the foot bath with no feet in it and still gotten rust or light yellow color. BUT, almost no foot baths I have done on myself or others has there been no smell. On the other hand, at no time doing the bath with nobody in it did I ever detect any smell. With people in the bath, most of the time it has been a chlorine or yeast smell. One occasion with a chemo patient I almost passed out when dumping it out the drug smell was that overpowering. These smells are almost all the time very strong that I cannot imagine that the machine is having no effect on the smell. No way in my opinion. And after my wife and I had done a series of foot baths, the odor in our baths was greatly reduced. If I go a long time with no foot bath, I get a stronger odor. You could imagine other reasons, but I think the most logical one is simply toxins.
One last thing. From my reading, I have noted that with all the procedures done by doctors, most have not had a double blind placebo study to validate it's effectiveness. I also know a former drug rep to the doctors who went on to become a bio chemist who stated that the number of those doctor tested "gold standard" studies actually done is only around 25%. I know that only around half of all back surgeries to reduce pain are successful. I'm just trying to put the gold standard studies in perspective a little.
I have tried alternative things and found some to work well and others no so much. My body is extremely intelligent and gives me great feedback as to something's effectiveness. I'm not saying these studies are not of good value, I just think with so much successes to be reported (at least with a machine worth using) that it should not be so easily dismissed because no gold standard study has been done. I frankly do not need to see such a study as the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Thanks for letting me share!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2012/12/26 17:39  Updated: 2012/12/27 1:26
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
I have been a LMT for 5 years now & was recently introduced to the ionic foot bath. I was skeptical at first, but after a 1.5 hour treatment, I noticed several differences. The trigger points (knots) in my body were still there, but the inflamed problematic ones had decreased in size. My feet also felt amazing! Now, in my family, we all do a "foot bath" 3-5x per week. This always consisted of hot water, essential oils, epsom salt, & maybe bubble bath. This does wonders especially after a stressful day, but does not compare to the benefits of an ionic foot bath. The toxins drawn out are not the same from each adult in our house. I believe it works!!
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Anonymous
Posted: 2013/7/16 1:27  Updated: 2013/7/16 8:31
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
A study done in Canada confirms there's no change in the water due to any release from the person's body through the feet. Sweat may do more than this, as well as dry saunas. The main author of the study is a member of the canadian Colege of Naturopathy.

Check the source below for the study :
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2012/258968/
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Anonymous
Posted: 2013/10/17 12:20  Updated: 2013/10/17 21:58
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Sometimes you can't explain things you don't understand - like electricity- do you really know how it works? The main thing about detoxing footpath isn't really the color of the water - it's whether you are pooping and peeing a lot afterwards. That's how you know toxins are getting pushed out of your system. It's ionic all water will change color according to the metals and impurities.. Never judge a book by its cover.. Only by the effect of the content.
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Anonymous
Posted: 2013/10/18 2:38  Updated: 2013/10/19 16:58
 Re: Ionic Foot Baths - Might as well flush your money dow...
Yes, I know how electricity works, down to the charged electron level. All the more reason to understand why ionic foot baths are hokum. How ironic you should ask, and then go on to say "never judge a book by its cover", suggesting that it takes studying something in detail to know if it is good or bad rather than believing in what you don't know or can't understand.

But if you still believe in things you don't understand, I have some land I would love to sell you. Just don't ask where it is. You don't want to know.

Now, can we get back to serious topics, Steve? Maybe just dump this thread once and for all?
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